"Real" makeup artists?

[MisStarrlight]

A few months back I really pissed off this girl on Model Mayhem. In my profile on there it says:

I also work for MAC Cosmetics, but am by no means a "MAC Girl". I wish for much more than a retail "artist" position.

She wrote me, flipping out about how she is a MAC Girl & damn proud & how her paycheck & her kit look so great, blah blah blah.

For some reason I woke up thinking about it today. I don't really understand why this offended her so much....she's got a decent book and has obviously moved beyond the retail world by taking those shoots. All I was saying was that I wanted to be a professional makeup artist, not stuck at a counter forever.

I was just wondering what you all thought about retail artists...do you consider them real makeup artists or just someone who has gotten a job at a makeup counter for the hell of it?




PS: I didn't feel this was just for people working at retailers so I put it in the regular industry discussion, but if you must, feel free to move it to the sub-forum.

[SARAHluvsMAC]

Ummm.... depends on what line they work for
mainly to me if you work for mac then you are a makeup artist to a certain degree

some counters i just consider them ppl that ring up my purchases pretty much

[Katja]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisStarrlight

I was just wondering what you all thought about retail artists...do you consider them real makeup artists or just someone who has gotten a job at a makeup counter for the hell of it?

Maybe that girl has a lot of pride in her work.

I think retail artists can vary in expertise and experience. So with that in mind, I always perceive them as just Makeup Artists that happen to work in a retail environment. I have never said consciously, "They aren't REAL makeup artists since they work at a counter." But I also believe that art has no rules. I appreciate the variety and creativity with each artist because they each embody their own individual style. Even if it's at an amateur level, they always have room to improve, so that in itself is still art. [/end horrible periphrasis]

[Jade M]

It is a really good question that you have raised.

I think that there are some amazingly talented artists working in retail (either because they are building skills or actually enjoy the work), but agree that in some cases the staff on some counters seem to just be 'sales assistants'.

For me, I guess I see our profession as being a 'trade' like an electrician etc, and thus you need to be accredited in some form (eg by study, license, apprenticeship or experience) to be able to call yourself a MUA. Just my opinion.

[d_flawless]

i think that's dumb of her to assume that you should be as proud of MAC because she is. obviously everyone has their own goals in life, and maybe that's not the only thing you'd like to accomplish as far as professional make up artistry goes. however, i could see some misunderstanding from her end too, though. it could have just come across as though u were saying "i'm better", though i don't necessarily agree that wanting to further your career means you're a snob and insulting people that don't want that, though that's probably what she got from that.
no offense to any MAC employee, but there are clearly people who just have a passion in make up in general and happen to represent MAC, and then there are people who only want to be a part of the MAC world, yet not necessarily with their own clientele.

[ms.marymac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisStarrlight

A few months back I really pissed off this girl on Model Mayhem. In my profile on there it says:

I also work for MAC Cosmetics, but am by no means a "MAC Girl". I wish for much more than a retail "artist" position.

She wrote me, flipping out about how she is a MAC Girl & damn proud & how her paycheck & her kit look so great, blah blah blah.

For some reason I woke up thinking about it today. I don't really understand why this offended her so much....she's got a decent book and has obviously moved beyond the retail world by taking those shoots. All I was saying was that I wanted to be a professional makeup artist, not stuck at a counter forever.

I was just wondering what you all thought about retail artists...do you consider them real makeup artists or just someone who has gotten a job at a makeup counter for the hell of it?




PS: I didn't feel this was just for people working at retailers so I put it in the regular industry discussion, but if you must, feel free to move it to the sub-forum.

I understood what you were saying.

Sounds like someone may have some self-esteem issues. Either covering up intimidation or in need of parting ways with a high horse. Maybe she's ultra defensive because of all the heat Mac MAs get...especially with this boycott going on. Maybe she's a Mac-Bot...

To answer your question, I think it depends on the person.

[calbear]

I definitely can understand her point. If you hang out on these sites (MUA, Specktra, LJ, etc...) the MAC MA bashing is crazy. First the constant ranting about how horrible we are in attitude and lack of knowledge re: upcoming collections and Second the refusal to believe that any of us have an inch of skill gets to a girl. She was probably just tired of all the flack we get and decided to say something to you. Not saying it's right - just happens.

[amoona]

I can totally understand why she would be pissed but I also understand what you mean. Just remember that it's the internet and she's never dealt with you before so she really doesn't know the tone you were saying it in.

However I personally don't see the "MAC Girl" as someone who lacks any talent or even someone who isn't a "real" make-up artist. I don't think a certification or degree in make-up artistry makes you a more credible artist. Make-up to me is art, so if you have the ability then you have it. Yes you can learn it but it's something that needs to be learned and improved by hands on experience. There are some counters that I don't see as having make-up artists because they do just ring up customers.

I know someone who is considered a "real" professional make-up artist who has worked on beauty pagents and even on news programs. He now works at MAC and loves it. He said it's the best job he's ever had and he truly enjoys doing a girl's make-up for prom or a bride's make-up or someone's make-up for their first date. I guess it depends on the person.

Even before I was hired at MAC I would even get offended when people tried to diss MAC artists as not being real artists. I understand that you were not doing that, but maybe she just took it that way. So back to the question, yes there are some counters were I consider the girls/guys artists and there are others where I consider them to be just sales people.

Everyone has their own opinion ... as long as nobody is dissing anybody's skill or talent then it's all good. I HATE the MAC boycott thing because all those people do is diss the company and the MAC artists. That to me, makes those anti-MAC artists non-credible.

*Sorry I type too much haha

[pixichik77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona

Everyone has their own opinion ... as long as nobody is dissing anybody's skill or talent then it's all good. I HATE the MAC boycott thing because all those people do is diss the company and the MAC artists. That to me, makes those anti-MAC artists non-credible.

Sorry, bit off topic, but not ALL of the people involved in the MAC boycott are against the company and artists, rather they are against the practices and integrity of the company, not the company per se. Being upset that their jobs are being "stolen" doesn't make them non-credible as artists.

Back on topic, I think it depends on the person, their skill, and their ambition. I know some very "real" artists if we will classify them taht way who are just fine working at a counter... for now, with no immediate plans for "after". I know some great artists punching the time clock for just a little while longer and then they'll be on their way. Me, I'm just waiting to be done with school. I work parttime now, and may not even be there this summer (I'm hoping for an internship... *crossing fingers*)

[amoona]

To me when these "real" artist diss MAC artists it does make them non-credible in my eyes.

[Beauty Mark]

If you're a real artist, you're an artist no matter what. I think it varies with retail. Some people probably do it for the cash and discount, others are seriously interested in make-up.

I think your writing may have offended her, because some people strongly identify themselves and quality make-up with MAC. While most MAC fans are sensible, a few get way into the fandom of the company. It's, I hate to say, kind of normal. I've seen the rabid fandom happen with most popular things (computers, TV shows, movies, actors, etc.)

[Villainiss]

To me, I think that there is a serious issue with the terminology that's used for anyone who does makeup. Someone once said to me, "if you're getting paid to do something, that makes you a professional, rather than just a hobbyist." I like the sound of that, and I believe in that to a certain extent.

Saying someone is or isn't a "real makeup artist" is insulting; anyone who does makeup as their profession is a makeup artist, but some are freelance, and some are working for other people. I believe that first and foremost, the people who work at MAC counters are retail sales people who are ALSO makeup artists. We can all confirm that these people are, in fact, real.

I think that if we choose to use real vs. MAC girls, then we as a community are causing bigotry amongst ourselves. I think it's more acceptable to say that there are freelance artists, contract artists, and retail sales/artists, because I don't see what's wrong with have two talents - of being able to create, as well as sell.

I would also venture to say that there are plenty of people who work for MAC that are not artists, but are still certified, because they took the training. Sure, they know the basics, but these people will be more geared to the sales aspect, and will do well with the company, and rise in the ranks to positions that better suit them than out on the floor doing makeup. The people that do better with the makeup may move on to something else, and continue to improve their trade, or stay on become higher in the ranks utilizing their talents to develop product, looks, or other talent related positions.

But I think overall, we need to recognize that it takes all kinds of people that are makeup artists. Sure, I know some people who do amazing special effects work, but suck terribly at beauty/glamour, and will be the first to admit it. Artists can be anywhere in the spectrum, and they should all be considered "real artists"...or more on point, "professional makeup artists".

[claresauntie]

Villainiss :

Very very well said. Thank you!

[martygreene]

This is going to sound harsh, but it is like the square::rectangle thing.

A makeup artist can also happen to work at a retail position, but a retail position individual is not nessicarily a makeup artist.

There are many talented individuals working at retail cosmetic positions, and some of them may be working independantly as professional makeup artists. However, there are also a large number of people out there who believe that because they can apply makeup to themselves/friends/a retail drop-in customer and that they have all the products from their retail line, that they are a makep artist by profession. Unfortunately, this is not the case. They are a retail sales associate, and have a passion for makeup.

Back when I frequented MAC I would go in on occasion to have my makeup done, and every time I had to adjust it because the application was shoddy. I've had numerous clients who have had their makeup done at such-and-such a counter (even with pre-scheduled appointments) and come out looking shoddy with poor application and color placement. Same goes with Sephora, in fact I've had more ladies come from there to me because their bridal makeup application was so poor. Particularly when these individuals who claim to be makeup artists by profession begin to do work intended for photography, with their brand-loyal kits, is when you really see the issue. Consumer cosmetics generally are not suited for professional use, and simply just don't cut it.

Much like there is a difference between a photographer by profession and a "guy-with-a-camera", there is a difference between a makeup artist by profession and a "girl-with-a-kit". This isn't to say that these passionate people aren't being artistic with makeup, or that they can't live their pipe dreams of being a makeup artist by profession, it's just that they aren't there yet. There is a lot of talent out there, but talent alone doesn't cut it.

[aeni]

Quote:

Originally Posted by martygreene

A makeup artist can also happen to work at a retail position, but a retail position individual is not nessicarily a makeup artist.

I agree. All I've ever had to do in the work force is retail. I see working for a counter as a great and cheaper way to stock your kit and make some ok $ too.

[MisStarrlight]

So most of you agree with me. That's good to know. hehehe


I don't really care that I upset her (I would definitely say that she read waay too much into what I was saying). Glad most of you all understood what I meant. I never said that MAC girls aren't real MUAs, just that I have higher ambitions than being stuck behind the counter, but I wanted to know what other people thought of it.

[calbear]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisStarrlight

just that I have higher ambitions than being stuck behind the counter.

wow - I think this may have been what she was picking up on

[astronaut]

In my eyes, if you work for a brand like MAC, then you have to be a makeup artist to an extent due to the amount of skills and experience required for the job. But some other brands I don't know too much. I'd consider a person that works at MAC a MA whereas if it were a brand like Clinique or something, I'd refer to them as beauty advisors. When I worked at Macy's, I remember a lot of the females in cosmetics, most of them didn't know diddely squat about makeup. A lot of them didn't even wear makeup themselves! But that being said, I wouldn't say that EVERYONE that works for the other brands aren't artists because I remember a girl that worked for Lancome and was very involved in the makeup.

[MisStarrlight]

Quote:

Originally Posted by calbear

wow - I think this may have been what she was picking up on

What? That wasn't mean at all.
It's the truth. (and honestly, she does too, since she went to MUD & has done other non-MAC stuff) so....

[Beauty Mark]

I guess, in a certain light, that comes off a snobby, because some people, for whatever reasons, are stuck behind retail for their lives.

I get what you're saying and why, since I'm always surprised when a lot of bright, talented people strive to work at such and such a retail store (not just MAC, but certain other retail stores) and end their goals at that, like they don't even strive to work as a manager or anything higher up than a retail person. I think a lot of people miss out on the bigger picture and idealize the company so much. However, it is always worthwhile to err on the side of caution when it comes to what you put on the internet. I'd personally change what you wrote to read something like this: While I currently work at MAC and love it, my goal is utilize this great experience to become an independent professional makeup artist.

You praise the company but let others know what you intend on doing with yourself, without slighting anyone. Keeping it positive should minimize the amount of people offend. I understand what you're saying, because I want to do more with my life than work administrative positions, although I do respect and understand their value.

[honyd]

mac (makeup artists cosmetics)...was a company that was founded on great basis... they did great work... they still do... but..... i think when a huge company like el takes over...whom already own 50 other brands they comprimised thier position... now it is a SALES drivin force... not so much as an artists work. They want the counter people or artists to sell sell sell... I think this is where the trouble begins. Huge co like el arent interested so much in the artist factor ... they are interested in the money factor. Which may have some mac die hards since the begining fans thinking twice about what really makes the brand. Sorry to go on but i do agree...that an artist is an artist in what they love to do and can do well... but if u have a mua that is just slapping things on to get a higher aus than no thats not an artist that is a beauty sales advisor. Im sure things would have been much diffrent it MAC would have stayed in its orginal tracks as an artist co.... but they sold out to corporate world..... thus the overlly released lack of creativity lines comming out. THese are just my opinions ...so please dont take offense... i love mac just as much and am a sucker for a good color story. But we all kno els bottom line is money not artistry. And i feel bad for the ma s that are getting undercut.

[lightsinsorrow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by honyd

mac (makeup artists cosmetics)...was a company that was founded on great basis... they did great work... they still do... but..... i think when a huge company like el takes over...whom already own 50 other brands they comprimised thier position... now it is a SALES drivin force... not so much as an artists work. They want the counter people or artists to sell sell sell... I think this is where the trouble begins. Huge co like el arent interested so much in the artist factor ... they are interested in the money factor. Which may have some mac die hards since the begining fans thinking twice about what really makes the brand. Sorry to go on but i do agree...that an artist is an artist in what they love to do and can do well... but if u have a mua that is just slapping things on to get a higher aus than no thats not an artist that is a beauty sales advisor. Im sure things would have been much diffrent it MAC would have stayed in its orginal tracks as an artist co.... but they sold out to corporate world..... thus the overlly released lack of creativity lines comming out. THese are just my opinions ...so please dont take offense... i love mac just as much and am a sucker for a good color story. But we all kno els bottom line is money not artistry. And i feel bad for the ma s that are getting undercut.

I work for MAC and we exhaust this issue at staff meetings. It SHOULD be about artistry. But it isn't. It's about AUS/IPT. Apparently they are trying to shift focus from that, but who is EL shitting? I know so many talented artists who come to work stressed about making their numbers, and it shouldn't be that way. If we all wanted to be sales associates, we'd be at Bath & Body Works or something. But we came to MAC for a reason. And yes, a lot of artists are getting undercut- whether or not they work for MAC. I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with Risa (aka SonRisa). She is a phenomenal artist and MAC canned her. Why? Because of her numbers. As much as I do love working for MAC, I realize that the integrity of the company has been compromised a great deal. And it sucks.

[MACgirl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightsinsorrow

I work for MAC and we exhaust this issue at staff meetings. It SHOULD be about artistry. But it isn't. It's about AUS/IPT. Apparently they are trying to shift focus from that, but who is EL shitting? I know so many talented artists who come to work stressed about making their numbers, and it shouldn't be that way. If we all wanted to be sales associates, we'd be at Bath & Body Works or something. But we came to MAC for a reason. And yes, a lot of artists are getting undercut- whether or not they work for MAC. I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with Risa (aka SonRisa). She is a phenomenal artist and MAC canned her. Why? Because of her numbers. As much as I do love working for MAC, I realize that the integrity of the company has been compromised a great deal. And it sucks.

first and foremost risa was fired becuase of her numbers? YIKES! they lost pure talent! thier loss for sure!...i hope all is well for her. I couldnt agree with more girlfirend.....

[circusflavouredgum]

I can see both sides, what the OP was saying and the girl on MM. The MAC artist who was offended might have been so just because as others said there are a lot of people who write off counter artists as not "real" artists.

There are some very talented people who work as counter makeup artists and love makeup but for whatever reasons, aren't getting paid much money to do so (and unless you have the help and financial support of family/parter, work tends to be sporadic in the beginning unless you're extremely lucky when you work as a freelance artist) so they take on a retail job where they can at least keep in practise with their skills.

That being said there are many people in all lines (yes even MAC!) who don't have a clue about makeup but are good salespeople and have the right "look" that the hiring manager feels will represent the brand image.

I myself do both, work in a department store sometimes for $$ and have worked as a freelance artist for close to 15 years. I was also fired from MAC for not making numbers after almost 6 years.

So I can totally see the OP's point, I myself ultimately would love to make as much money just freelancing and not have to work behind the counter anymore. Not that there's anything wrong with it at all if you enjoy it but personally my goal is to work for myself as a freelance artist and not be tied to any ONE company. I don't particularly enjoy the sales aspect of doing makeup behind the counter, so I don't find it as fulfilling.

Some people are numbers, sales, and business minded..they might not feel "stuck" in that type of job and might find it really interesting. That's cool, just not my thing.

[~Coco~]

I think it totally depends on the person and how much they educate themselves(at the MAC counter). For instance I went there the other day and the gal that waited on me didn't know how to pronounce the names of half the lipsticks(I kept correcting her, not intentionally just instinct!) then she couldn't find the ones I was asking her about(I ended up finding them!) and then she insisted I have pink in my skin...which I totally don't, I have olive skin. She really seemed clueless. Yet at the same counter after that gal left me when I told her I was all set(I was doing better waiting on myself!) another gal came over who was super educated and sold me 3 items. SO some take it much more serious and others give it a bad name. I do know that when I worked at Macy's in the fragrance department, when we were short handed I was scooped off to Clinique, Estee Lauder and other counters and told to do makeup. They would tell me to just do the best I could! SOOOO who knows!