faith

[litlaur]

I don't really discuss my faith with most people because it is very personal to me. So that's not what this is about.

Would you look down on someone for having different beliefs? I was really surprised to see a post in a LiveJournal community suggesting that members should lose respect for Alton Brown because he expressed religious beliefs in a Christian magazine. I've never heard anything relatively preachy or religious on his show or in other interviews. Someone went so far as to say they were "disappointed" to learn that such a smart person believes in "the bullshit that is religion".

What I think? I don't like others to push religion on me, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions or beliefs, atheist or religious. To suggest that you should lose respect for someone who is religious is just as bad as preaching to someone who doesn't want to hear it.

 

[Shimmer]

If a person's faith is well founded and researched...*shrug* it's his/her business.
I don't want anyone's faith foisted on me, & I'm not going to foist mine on anyone else.
Granted, there are belief systems that I absolutely refuse to believe in based on what I've learned about them, but that doesn't take away anyone else's right to follow them.

 

[Raerae]

It would really depend on what it ends up doing to their life. If it's a positive effect on someone's life, great. However if it's a negative influence in in person's life, and they can't see that, I could see losing respect. It's a case by case basis really, and throwing a blanket statement out really doesn't cover all situations.

Personally I think the premise of a lot of religion is silly, and dont see the personal need to look to a higher power for guidance. However the principles and community building that many religions are based on can be very positive (or negative) in a person(s) life.

To each is own. I'll stick to worshiping my 187 brush, it demands another MSF! I'm powerless to resist.

 

[giz2000]

I respect everyone's right to believe what they want. I may not agree with their particular beliefs, but I would never judge someone because of them.

 

[Another Janice!]

I believe what I believe. That being said, others have a right to believe what they believe.

I will not force my religion on anyone. People know I am a Christian and if there is something they want to know, they will ask. I am happy to discuss it with them, but you won't catch me nohow, noway telling another person their religion is wrong (cultists and such are a different story IMO...I'm talking about true "religions".)

I work with people from every walk of life...A Muslim that practices Islam, an athiest, an agnostic, a wiccan...there is a whole mix. These are all awesome people and my life is most definately better having known them all. I would never judge them or anyone else for what they do or do not believe.

If anything, I find it interesting to hear of their beliefs and why.

 

[Eoraptor]

Ooh, faith. A touchy subject if there ever was one. I'm atheist, btw.

I think the problem here is that you're confusing three issues. One, whether your respect for people should change based on their religion. Two, whether people should be allowed to believe what they want. And three, whether it's okay to evangelize (spread your religion) people against their will. Now, I think we all agree people should be able to believe what they want. That's basic freedom. I also think we agree it's wrong to try to convert a person against their will. This doesn't mean we can't say what we think about their religion, of course. Religion shouldn't be more immune to criticism than any other belief.

But respecting someone's right to believe in a religion is not the same as respecting that religion. As an example, I don't think creationism is a respectable belief at all*. I think creationists are extremely ignorant of science, and this makes it so that when I learn someone is creationist, I think 'this person can't evaluate evidence well', or 'this person has never bothered to question their core beliefs', or 'this person is a hypocrite for selectively trusting the scientific method'. Any of these facts obviously affects how much I respect someone. Now, importantly, I can respect that person in many other ways. Maybe they're a great listener, or extremely helpful, or excellent at math, or a hard worker. There are tons of ways I can respect people, and no one is perfect, so no one gets respected for everything. So religious readers, PLEASE don't think my comments above mean I lack personal respect for you.

* PLEASE don't start arguing creationism vs. evolution either. It won't result in any changes of belief and will just take up time. I was just showing how religious beliefs can correlate to personality traits which some people don't respect.

A good way to demonstrate why respecting all religions isn't necessary is to look at other faith-based beliefs. For example, would the religious readers here respect belief in invisible pink elephants? Surely you'd think a devout 'elephantist' wasn't quite right, and you couldn't say 'your belief sounds reasonable to me, it's good that you believe in such elephants'. Take it up a notch to Scientology. Do you think it's respectful that people believe in a story written decades ago by a science fiction writer? That people contain alien souls put here by an ancient warlord and whatnot? Yet these are faith-based, just like Christianity or any other religion (any factual [non-opinion] belief that's not faith-based, is evidence-based, and thus is science). The only difference between a cult and a religion is how long it's been around and how many members it has. Both are social factors that have little to do with truth. Would you respect someone more because they believe what lots of other people have believed for a long time?

I wouldn't have thought I'd be posting something like this on Specktra.

 

[user79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer If a person's faith is well founded and researched

Isn't that a bit subjective though? What may be well founded to one person may be nothing but trite wishy-wash to another. I think thats what the tolerance of faith is trying to go over - letting other people believe whatever they want regardless of your own views on it.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissChievous Isn't that a bit subjective though? What may be well founded to one person may be nothing but trite wishy-wash to another. I think thats what the tolerance is faith is trying to go over - letting other people believe whatever they want regardless of your own views on it.

Not at all.
Any well founded and researched subject can be discussed at length with numerous citations brought up as well as numerous viewpoints dissected.
Faith is no different.
Questioning one's own faith, and researching those questions, and ultimately being able to either maintain the faith or delve deeper until a satisfactory conclusion is reached (even if it's one that isn't liked) is never a bad thing.
Being able to discuss faith A with someone who follows faith B is important, but in that discussion, A needs to be able to tell B why A believes tenets of faith A and to be able to listen and understand why B follows the tenets of faith B.
That doesn't make either faith right or wrong but it does make both people following them knowledgable about their decision and able to withstand attacks on their faith.


Big difference between research and, for example, following something written in a science fiction book in the 1950s.

And I'll go ahead and add:
I don't care WHAT faith someone else follows. They can worship the gods of the ketchup napkins at 711 for all I care, but that doesn't mean I'm going to follow it. It simply means I'm going to leave them to their practices and go about mine.

 

[Hawkeye]

Many people know my views on religion by now

I don't care if someone worships frogs as long as they know WHY they believe what they do.

Tall order? You bet. EX: Tom Cruise. I don't like Scientology because it makes no sense to me-and Tom Cruise is the biggest one out there. Do I not like him because of the faith? No because I feel he knows why he believes it. He can back it up-even if its personal, he has researched it etc.

Same with Madonna-this whole Kabbalah thing, not feeling it personally but I respect Madonna's thoughts on it because she has researched it and can back it up.

Those are famous people now for normal people (hehe). It drives me absolutely crazy (and I'm talking its like nails on a blackboard crazy) when people say-oh I'm this or that and when you say oh thats cool why I'd like to know a little bit more about it-and they respond by just repeating what they have heard not when its on a personal level. It's just regurgitation.

Prime example of this-I had a friend who said she was a Christian-she sang the loudest, prayed the longest (that was the first sign she had no clue) and then she had the opprotunity to go on a mission trip-but heres the catch-she didn't say it because she didn't have to-her boyfriend was going. That's the only reason she went on that trip and she didn't understand upon coming home why she didn't feel the spirit move.

I guess it's because I research and have been around many communities and I'm very discerning (Yes, I'll say it, I'm cocky) that I can spot someone who is acting a mile away. I can spot someone who doesn't know what they truely believe a mile away.

If someone has faith (and I don't care if they are agnostic or athiest) they have to know WHY they believe it so they can stand up to anyone who wants to try to tell them otherwise. One of my dearest friends, she is an agnostic but it's OK because she has told me why she believes it points out her reasoning etc.

I think the world would benefit if people listened to other points of views, but the views must be valid by being able to say-Listen I'm a (whatever) and this is why-it's not because my parents are its not because my friends are it's because (whatever) has really made a difference in my thoughts, my ideas, it meshes well with my ideals and values as human being.

Again with my friend who is an agnostic-she's a die hard liberal. Do we have political discussions? Hell yeah but because she knows why she believes and her values as a human being she can discuss it with me logically. We will never agree on that topic but its a logical discussion.

Her brother on the other hand-is agnostic and is also liberal but to him everything is "stupid", "Unintelligent", " Dumb", pathetic, etc-and therefore his points cannot be validated because if you ask why do you think they are stupid etc he just sits there and goes it's all over the news and then you point out to him that yes but since when does the news make your opinion for you-suddenly he gets really angry really fast.

One of the lessons I've learned from a Muslim religious leader (sorry but I've been rather sick all night so I cannot think clearly) You can actually learn a LOT about a person by what they say and what they profess to believe in.

Like my best friend-I find her very intelligent and very grounded in her ideas and values where her brother, I can't help but say he isn't validated in any way because he hasn't done his research and he's just regurgitating everything he has always heard.

I've had the pleasure of meeting with Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhists etc religious authorities and they all could have a logical discussion and point out the benefits the pros the cons of their faith.
Another person, this time coming from a Buddhist Monk, I got a chance to talk to one and the best advice he had given me is to know what i believe and make sure that it is very firm.

Every other religious figure I spoke with agreed.

So anyway the point is I cannot look down on someone who has done a lot of research and fully knows why they believe what they do but I do have a tendency (and I admit) to look down on people (like my first friend who was the christian that prayed the longest etc) who do not do research, have no idea what they believe but decide they want to believe something because it's what their family always believed or their boyfriend believe or their friends believe.

It's a personal thing and you MUST be able to defend yourself against it when people like my best friends brother says-" You're just being stupid".

But I'm strange, I search for wisdom like people thirst for water. It's a hunger for me. I can easily tell (which is scary), if people truely believe what they believe because of #1) All the years I've spent looking #2) listening to the advice of other religions and religious figures and #3) listening to normal people.

I can honestly tell you I've found more bums on the street that were more intune with their lives then I have regular church goeers.

Nothing makes me more angry then when people have no clue what they believe but just go ahead and profess Christianity, Islam, Judism. I would much rather someone tell me to my face, I do not believe in Christianity because I haven't seen it make a difference in my life it doesnt work with my values, it doesnt meet my needs or whatever than to have them go around pretending because quite honestly that is the most dispicable thing someone can do because they are not lieing just to other people but they are lieing to themselves.

 

[litlaur]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eoraptor I think the problem here is that you're confusing three issues. One, whether your respect for people should change based on their religion. Two, whether people should be allowed to believe what they want. And three, whether it's okay to evangelize (spread your religion) people against their will. Now, I think we all agree people should be able to believe what they want. That's basic freedom. I also think we agree it's wrong to try to convert a person against their will. This doesn't mean we can't say what we think about their religion, of course. Religion shouldn't be more immune to criticism than any other belief.

No, I wasn't really getting it confused. My opinion is based on the other two issues, but the question was simply whether or not you would lose respect for someone based on their beliefs.

For example, let's compare Tom Cruise and Alton Brown

Opinion: We all know Tom Cruise is a Scientologist and has been for some time now. As crazy as Scientology might seem, I wouldn't think less of someone for simply being a Scientologist (let's disregard theories about brain-washing, for simplicity's sake).

Alton Brown is a Christian. No big surprise there. I have a lot of respect for him and his faith does not really affect my respect for him.

based on issue 2: (both Cruise and Brown) I don't really think much of it because, as most of us have already said, a person has the right to believe whatever they choose (I believe it to be essentially true for anybody, whether or not their government "allows" it).

and issue 3: I think Cruise crossed the line when he publicly denounced Brooke Shields, not a Scientologist, for taking anti-depressants because of his Scientology beliefs.

Brown expressed his religious views in a religious media outlet. If that's not appropriate, what is?

 

[Shimmer]

I think, based on Eroraptor's post, that what he is saying, (now this is my perception because of his post, and I could be wrong, and if I am please do correct me) is that he doesn't hold a lot of respect for religion at all, and for those who follow it he seeks to find other reasons to respect them because he can't respect their choices on that subject.

 

[NtheSticks]

would I loose respect for someone based on their religion/faith? depends on if they're saying one thing and doing another. But then it's not their religion that's the issue.

I have lost respect for someone who spouts tolerance but isn't, or anti-drug mouthings and is then arrested for - or goes into rehab for - drug use, etc.

but...two to one, the gent who looks down on the person for the bullshit beliefs wants everyone to not think his thoughts are bullshit.

It's a bigger leap of faith to NOT believe in creationism, for example, than to believe it. but whatever.

 

[Eoraptor]

Quote:

Isn't that a bit subjective though? What may be well founded to one person may be nothing but trite wishy-wash to another.

I agree. Any faith can be well researched, but no faith-based belief is well founded. If it were well founded, it wouldn't be faith!

Quote:

It drives me absolutely crazy (and I'm talking its like nails on a blackboard crazy) when people say-oh I'm this or that and when you say oh thats cool why I'd like to know a little bit more about it-and they respond by just repeating what they have heard not when its on a personal level.

I completely agree, youbeabitch! I'll respect someone FAR more for actually understanding and being able to justify their beliefs. It happens all too rarely though. Generally people just follow the religion their parents taught them, or repeat the slogans of their faith without researching others. I think only a tiny majority of Christians have read The Bible, for instance. Or know how it has put together. I have this friend, and she can't justify ANY belief she has. I asked her why she believed in ghosts once, and she's like 'I don't know'. It was maddening! I mean, HOW can you believe in something without a reason? Surely, your entire decision to believe or not should be based on one or more reasons. Ughh.

On the other hand, it can work the other way too. If someone hasn't been exposed to criticisms of their belief, they are merely ignorant. But if they know all the problems with their faith, and still believe in it, they're indoctrinated or willfully blind in my view, and I respect that even less than ignorance. It's all very complicated. For instance, I have this devout Biblical literalist Christian friend. I respect her for truly reading and knowing The Bible, and actually trying hard to live by it. Most people just take what they like out of it, but she went all the way. And I really respect that kind of consistancy. But of course I don't respect believing in much of what the Bible says (creation, homosexuality is wrong, etc.), so she loses respect there. Complicated!

Quote:

and issue 3: I think Cruise crossed the line when he publicly denounced Brooke Shields, not a Scientologist, for taking anti-depressants because of his Scientology beliefs. Brown expressed his religious views in a religious media outlet. If that's not appropriate, what is?

See, I think Tom should be allowed to do that, just as I should be allowed to publically denounce him for his false beliefs on drugs. I may just be naive, but I'd really want viewers/listeners/readers to be able to independantly research claims made by anyone and come to an educated conclusion.
From what you've said, no one ever claimed Brown's actions were inappropriate, merely not respectable.

Quote:

I think, based on Eroraptor's post, that what he is saying, (now this is my perception because of his post, and I could be wrong, and if I am please do correct me) is that he doesn't hold a lot of respect for religion at all, and for those who follow it he seeks to find other reasons to respect them because he can't respect their choices on that subject.

Pretty close, but saying I seek to find other reasons to respect them sounds like I'm desperate.

"They're religious? Oh no! Must ... find ... some other way to respect them!" Haha. Finding other reasons to respect good people is usually very easy.

 

[Hawkeye]

There is a very fine line between ignorance and flat out Stupidity. There is a difference! Ignorance is not chosen. Stupidity is. Unfortunately theres no other word for it.

I know that it's like pulling teeth for me to say yes I am a Christian only because it is those that have chosen ignorance and ignore the wisdom of other faiths that have put many Christians in the spot where we are now. Where it's not taken nearly as seriously.

I seriously cannot get enough of writings and stuff in all the books about religion because again its my thirst for wisdom. One of the things I admire Billy Graham and the Pope the most is because they know what they believe.

I don't think anybody and I cannot stress this enough-I don't think ANYBODY knows how dangerous stupidity really is. One of my favorite stories from a Native American Medicine man I actually got to talk with he was telling me about sheep. And how it amazed him how dumb they were. He used to be a sheep herder. And he was like, they fall they are too dumb to roll back over even though they know they'll die-they are just dumb.

But I actually got what he was saying (it was really a discussion about politics and people) and it's right. Humans are like sheep. We're dumb as dirt. We have no clue what goes on and we trust on people who have a degree or who have some sappy story to tell us what to think!

I mean look at our politicians in Washington! Not just Bush but look in the congress! You have Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy, McKinney here in GA, Isaacson etc. And some are in the house some are in the senet but it's OK they know whats going on and whats best for us lets go watch American Idol! Let's go see what happens with Jessica Simpson! Last time I checked she had nothing to do with eminent domain, she has nothing to do with the economy, she has nothing to do with illegal/legal immigration, she has nothing to do with the rights that we as Americans are guarenteed in the consititution-and people are so dumb they want to think that whatever the newest fad of celebrity says it is LAW. They have nothing to do with the tax code etc (By the way everyone go check out fairtax.org - sorry had to squeeze that in somewhere )

That's how dangerous stupidity is. Now to take it a step further in the religious and faith realm-
people who do not think for themselves give a lot of room for anyone to do anything. Anyone remember the Hale Bop Comet? Many of them just followed the leader because they couldn't think for themselves that hey, I eat starches all day and I'm about to go on a comet to meet God maybe this isnt the best idea? Or if they did they didn't question it.
Right now with this area with lebanon we have Christians who are thinking armegeddon is around the corner. Why? Because some guy read the book of revelation decided armegeddon is on its way and we should be happy we'll all go to heaven and whatnot. Well I hate to tell them that nowhere in the book of revelation is there anything about the rapture. Maybe in another book but where in Revelation does it say it?
We have muslims going out killing themselves because some guy told them to.
You have people in Kashmir, India who are fighting for a peace of land because some guy told them to.
Are you seeing a pattern here?

It's so dangerous in every realm to just agree and say Oh Ok, my hero says to go shoot up the joint so since HE says it I will. (Happened with Christians, Muslims, Jews etc)

Nazism happened essentially (and I know im hitting a sore subject but it has to be hit on to make the point I'm so sorry for offending anyone) because some guy told a lot of people and scared a lot of people into believing what he was saying is correct.

That's what drives me crazy. Nobody seems to see and understand this danger that is so evident (look through history you will see!) the danger that just comes along and people are stupid enough to sit and listen and say oh ok that guy seems cool lets listen to him.

I just can't have respect for that at all. And the sad part is there are warning signs everywhere but nobody listens to them because politics is boring and hard to understand, the economy is boring and hard to understand, foriegn affairs to get to the nitty gritty is boring and hard to understand, and religion is boring and hard to understand etc.

Now just plain ol ignorance, thats a totally different story. And again you can tell when people are truely ignorant of ideas etc.

Geez I've had a lot to rant about! LOL but your right it is all very complicated.

I mean I admit I was the one who chose ignorance not to long ago (say 10 years) and I was sitting in a church and I heard the same message over and over and over to the point that if I heard that Jesus died for my sins and lets save souls etc I was going to vomit.

And thats when I began my search to learn to know there had to be more to this God stuff then whatever people were telling me. I mean I know I looked everywhere (as you all know by now LOL) and I found the answer in the quietest place. I mean I was out in the woods and I sat by a tree and then I saw animals...and thats how I got into the Native American theology and it made sense to me. How one tiny action can create a huge reaction etc (You know the butterfly flaps its wings it creates a tsunami on the otherside of the world etc?)

Once I started looking for answers I got more answers and more questions and the more questions I had the more answers I got but I still dont know everything-I just know what annoys me and what doesnt

LOL

Rant is over. I promise LOL

 

[joytheobscure]

I don't discuss my belief system with people, I do, however; let them preach at me and nod my head and listen to them...I don't argue, its pointless, I respect what other people believe however uneducated some of them are or how big of hypocrites I can see them to be. I do not go to church but morally and ethically I like the golden rule - do unto others.... and the whole glass houses thing.

Religion is deeply private to me, although my quote is there is no religion but sex and music <grin> So much of religion revolves around sex (marriage/man woman relationships-music or lack of)... - I'm somewhat of a secular humanist and am learning about all religions and believe in god ...

I think a knowledge of world history and early Europe affected my opinions on Christianity and the more I know about history the more I feel that organized religion is so impacted by man that I can't follow it and feel honest with myself.

My opinion if people treated each other as they wanted to be treated in general we would not have the conflicts today - if everyone followed the doctrine that various religions preach about being good to one another the world would be a better place. But of course we are but human and judging others happens.

 

[Another Janice!]

youbeabitch....that was very well said. I agree completely.

btw...I feel terrible typing youbeabitch. I feel like I am calling you one or something...lol.

TOTALLY off topic, but how did you come up with the name?

 

[Hawkeye]

Hi another janice!

how did i come up with my name?

I have no clue. I think I was just watching TV and someone said it or something.

I thought it fit me perfectly since I'm very opinionated about so many things. *Shrugs*