Miscarriages potentially illegal in Utah

[Goat Goat Etc.]

So a law in Utah is up for veto or not to make it criminal for a woman to harm her fetus, but this law gives way to being interrupted in all the wrong ways for anyone antiabortion with judicial powers.
Utah: Making miscarriages a crime? - THE WEEK
Utah Bill Would Make Seeking Illegal Abortion a Crime - NYTimes.com

 

[obscuria]

That first article is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of.

 

[panda0410]

I have to agree, its the most idiotic proposal I have seen. It would cost the governement millions not only in the extra mandate health care, but tie down law enforcement and investigative officers in areas they need not be. Would cost the govt $ in that area too. I'd be surprised it was even given a second glance.

 

[xxManBeaterxx]

..Because miscarriages aren't natural occurring events

 

[obscuria]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxManBeaterxx ..Because miscarriages aren't natural occurring events

Of course not. It's always the woman's fault when a baby doesn't make it. That potential law will teach her. Penalties and being drag through the judicial system will now accompany the grief that already comes with having a miscarriage and teach her not to do it again.

I really don't understand how some people come to the conclusion that this would be a great idea.

 

[purrtykitty]

Well, consider the first statement in that article: "Just weeks after entertaining a plan to save money by making 12th grade optional..."

Because making graduation from high school 'optional' will make it so much easier for women (and families) to afford children. Got some real shining stars in that legislature.

 

[BEA2LS]

i think it is a scary law where innocent people could get hurt.. it might scare some ladies into not going to a doctor if she feels she had a miscarriage or needs medical help.

 

[LMD84]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obscuria Of course not. It's always the woman's fault when a baby doesn't make it. That potential law will teach her. Penalties and being drag through the judicial system will now accompany the grief that already comes with having a miscarriage and teach her not to do it again. I really don't understand how some people come to the conclusion that this would be a great idea.

it really makes you wonder about what stupid people there are out there

 

[MzzRach]

Quoted from THE WEEK article:

"......miscarriages that result from an "intentional, knowing, or reckless act" would be treated as illegal abortions, punishable by life in prison."

So who would define what an "intentional, knowing, or reckless act" is?

This is just scary.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MzzRach Quoted from THE WEEK article: "......miscarriages that result from an "intentional, knowing, or reckless act" would be treated as illegal abortions, punishable by life in prison." So who would define what an "intentional, knowing, or reckless act" is? This is just scary.

And therein lies the problem. Such interpretation would likely be left up to judges, which would lead to varying definitions until such time as the Utah Supreme Court found it necessary to define such behavior itself.

 

[shadowaddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purrtykitty And therein lies the problem. Such interpretation would likely be left up to judges, which would lead to varying definitions until such time as the Utah Supreme Court found it necessary to define such behavior itself.

So true. This is so beyond stupid. It is hard to imagine that anyone would think this law is a good thing.

When I read the article I just thought that poor teenager and how lonely and depressed she must have been to get to that point. If this law would have been in place at that time it would have made no difference in her case. She was so beyond desperate.

This just pisses me off and makes me sad at the same time.

 

[Meisje]

It really leaves it open for women who miscarry because of car accidents, falls, and other mishaps to be prosecuted. As if they wouldn't already be upset enough!

Not only is this an incredible invasion of women's privacy, and just a little bit 1984 for my taste, it also lays groundwork for criminalizing abortion. No surprise that it's brought by a Republican.

The woman sponsoring it said, when some of the supporters tried to retract the word "reckless" from the bill: "I know it's well-intentioned," Dayton said of the attempt to lift "reckless acts" from the bill, but I don't think we want to go down the road of carefully defining the behavior of a woman."

How nice that she's concerned about women's rights.

 

[greengoesmoo]

So, it's perfectly legal to have an abortion at the doc's? How is that ANY different?

The problem I see here is that these women are resorting to these methods because they cannot access the correct treatment for free and very easily and quickly.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't US doctors charge horrendously? Even more so than UK private clinics?

So poor girl can't afford a proper abortion, and rather than an unwanted child being born who's entire life will be shitty decides she can deal with the matter her own way is now punishable by law???

As sick this sounds I really wish ALL women were freely able to get an abortion at the snap of a finger!! 100% free, and immediate (or at least quicker than 2-3 weeks!)

I don't know how many of you have had one at any point, but it's either expensive or awkward (often both, in the UK a woman is expected to wait between 2 and 3 weeks after being confirmed she is allowed one. Even then she has to give reasons for not wanting her child!! £400.00 for a private.) and I fully appreciate exactly why a young girl would have a backstreet abortion.

Won't your doctor rat you out on ALL things if under 18 in the US also? This again is wrong.

I agree with above, this WILL also lead to women who have miscarried from slipping over/minor accidents not going to the hospital because of fear of lifetime incarceration.

Does this therefore also mean that should someone else intentionally, accidentally, carelessly cause a woman to lose her foetus, they will also receive LIFE inprisonment? Would the woman be held also guilty?

Utah still has the death penalty.. Surely if an intentional murder gets you the injection, so should an intentional miscarriage if it is regarded as the same act??? Where is the line drawn? And what difference is there between going to a doctor for the same act? (Other than the obvious health and psychological risks.)

This is exactly why you should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS rubber the fuck up!!!!!

 

[Face2Mac]

This is ridiculous. Yet, it is so conniving and backwards that it will lead to more states trying it. This is their way of scaring women into having children. You can't get a abortion nor can you miscarry. If you do miscarry, it better not be because you exercised that day, possibly have a stressful job or you're body just couldn't handle it, translation: carry a fetus to term or else, even if it kills you.

I am glad the media is finally paying attention, this bill has been moving through that legislature for some time now.

 

[BEA2LS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greengoesmoo So, it's perfectly legal to have an abortion at the doc's? How is that ANY different? The problem I see here is that these women are resorting to these methods because they cannot access the correct treatment for free and very easily and quickly. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't US doctors charge horrendously? Even more so than UK private clinics? So poor girl can't afford a proper abortion, and rather than an unwanted child being born who's entire life will be shitty decides she can deal with the matter her own way is now punishable by law??? As sick this sounds I really wish ALL women were freely able to get an abortion at the snap of a finger!! 100% free, and immediate (or at least quicker than 2-3 weeks!) I don't know how many of you have had one at any point, but it's either expensive or awkward (often both, in the UK a woman is expected to wait between 2 and 3 weeks after being confirmed she is allowed one. Even then she has to give reasons for not wanting her child!! £400.00 for a private.) and I fully appreciate exactly why a young girl would have a backstreet abortion. Won't your doctor rat you out on ALL things if under 18 in the US also? This again is wrong. I agree with above, this WILL also lead to women who have miscarried from slipping over/minor accidents not going to the hospital because of fear of lifetime incarceration. Does this therefore also mean that should someone else intentionally, accidentally, carelessly cause a woman to lose her foetus, they will also receive LIFE inprisonment? Would the woman be held also guilty? Utah still has the death penalty.. Surely if an intentional murder gets you the injection, so should an intentional miscarriage if it is regarded as the same act??? Where is the line drawn? And what difference is there between going to a doctor for the same act? (Other than the obvious health and psychological risks.) This is exactly why you should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS rubber the fuck up!!!!!

for your questions about the US, it really depends on the state. some states allow minors to go in without parental contest, some notify the parents and some outlaw it completely.. i know in NJ we have clinics where it can be done really cheap, sometimes free (those covered under medicaid can get one for free.. the state considers it cheaper than paying for a child for 18 years..)

I believe all states but NJ have the death penatly though some are quicker to use it than others.

 

[abbyquack]

Anyone who goes to the extreme of throwing themselves down the stairs or paying a man $150 to beat her up so that she can miscarry is probably not playing with a full deck...or is more worried of how her family/society is going to react. I think psychiatric help would probably be a better option than criminalizing them.

 

[Goat Goat Etc.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by abbyquack Anyone who goes to the extreme of throwing themselves down the stairs or paying a man $150 to beat her up so that she can miscarry is probably not playing with a full deck...or is more worried of how her family/society is going to react. I think psychiatric help would probably be a better option than criminalizing them.

Well the woman, they call her a woman, wasn't a woman. It was a 17 year old girl and I can imagine that there had to be a "inform your parents" law if she tried to receive some form of birth control before she ever started showing...now agreed she wasn't playing with a full deck. But how many stories have you heard about dumb 12-20 year olds who don't know pulling out is retarded?

 

[xxManBeaterxx]

Lynn M. Paltrow: Caution: Pregnancy May Be Hazardous to Your Liberty

Here is an excerpt from the full article..

Lynn M. Paltrow and Farah Diaz-Tello
While our country stands at a deadlock over legislation to ensure that millions of uninsured people have health care coverage, we can at least feel confident that some state legislators are hard at work, making it more difficult for women to access health care and much easier for states to put them, and the people who help them, in jail.
In Mississippi, legislators proposed a law, HB 695, which would make many forms of midwifery a crime. That is clearly bad for pregnant women and for babies for at least one very simple reason. As the White Ribbon Alliance for Safe Motherhood pointed out after Hurricane Katrina, when hospitals shut down as a result of a disaster, midwives are among the few who know how to deliver babies without electronic fetal monitors, surgical theatres or epidurals. For this reason, the Alliance highlighted the need to protect (not criminalize) midwives who have the skills needed under such circumstances.
When disasters hit, however, it is not only the women who are going to term who are in trouble. As the National Network of Abortion Funds found out after Hurricane Katrina forced abortion providers to close their doors, many women were also left without access to urgently needed abortion services.

If Utah lawmakers have their way, a woman under similar circumstances who attempts to take matters into her own hands could be charged with murder under House Bill 12, the state's effort to outlaw "self-abortions."
Right-to-life organizations have long maintained that if abortion were outlawed, only doctors who performed the abortions would go to jail. But Utah's proposed law ensures that women themselves, and not just those who help them, will be incarcerated for a minimum of 15 years. (Since 61 percent of women who have abortions are already mothers, a woman convicted under this law would, with any luck, be out of jail in time to see her son or daughter graduate from high school.)
Even without such a law, police officers in Iowa recently arrested a woman in her second trimester of pregnancy for the crime of attempted feticide after she tripped and fell down a flight of stairs. The county attorney's office dropped the case only after they decided that their unprecedented interpretation of the feticide law should only be applied to pregnant women in their third trimester. But in Utah, the law would expressly apply to pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy. So, if you are pregnant and clumsy in Utah, you could be charged with attempted murder, even in the first trimester...

 

[abbyquack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goat Goat Etc. Well the woman, they call her a woman, wasn't a woman. It was a 17 year old girl and I can imagine that there had to be a "inform your parents" law if she tried to receive some form of birth control before she ever started showing...now agreed she wasn't playing with a full deck. But how many stories have you heard about dumb 12-20 year olds who don't know pulling out is retarded?

You are right, she would've needed consent to get the abortion. The poor girl was probably so worried about her family/society's reaction to her situation (UT's societal pressures can be very devastating, I've been haunted by that shit for years from living there), so she acted out of desperation. I definitely think she needs counseling, not punishment- this situation is definitely an exception to the rule. Yes, a lot of girls get pregnant young, but most don't seek abortions in such an extreme way.

 

[LC]

why is this ridiculous? It says only miscarriages that were "intented" and "knowing". Of course it should be illegal to TRY to kill your baby.