Obama finally called to task - about time!

[athena123]

I've had reservations about Obama's membership in The Trinity Church for months now.

I'm very glad that the mainstream media has finally picked up on the extremely anti-American, inflammatory speeches spouted by rev. Jeremiah Wright. ABC News: Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11

Top of the Ticket : Los Angeles Times : The Rev. Jeremiah Wright was an early concern, Obama aide admits

It's about freaking time! It's frightening that a presidential candidate like Obama and the queen of media like Oprah belong to such a racist church. If Hillary of John McCain belonged to an unapologetically "white valued" church, there would have been hell to pay. But the media, in an attempt to downplay any appearance of discrimination has not made any issue of this until recently.

I only heard about Obama's membership in this church of hate because I listen to talk radio on my drive back and forth to work. Here's an extremely interesting article written by one of my favorite talk-show hosts, Larry Elder. You go Larry!

Larry Elder

I would love to see a woman or black win the presidency. But not hilary or barack, their socialized politics just don't line up with my values of limited government.

 

[iheartcolor]

THank you for your post. You make some very good points. It is always okay to rise against "the man", but "the man" had better keep its' mouth shut. I really hate when people don't play fair, but it seems the whole world is intent on breaking the rules.

-Lauren

 

[elegant-one]

I Love Larry Elder too - I would like him to be on more of the tv talk shows so that his voice could be heard more. He was on with Juan Williams too - it was really good

 

[athena123]

^^^ Yeah, one of the things I love about Larry is his Socratic approach to current events. He'll dissect a speech, paragraph or phrase and to uncover the underlying meaning of words. He reminds me of one of my critical thinking philosophy teachers when we were studying Plato

 

[AppleDiva]

I think what the pastor did in the pulpit was inappropriate, but I would not blame Barack for that. It seems that no one is blaming John McCain for courting ministers that are anti-Catholic and anti-Semitic among other things.

We have to remember that the same things that Barack Obama have been attacked for JFK was also attacked for. There should be no religious test for our elected officials. There are many leaders who espouse Christian tenets, but do no practice them when governing. In this country, we need to continue to separate church and state. As I stated before, the pastor should have kept his political beliefs to himself because congregations have diverse opinions and I do not need to know what my pastor's political leanings are nor my politician's religious affliation. The purpose of church is to not have motivational speeches, but to teach congregations about the love of Jesus, how to love our enemies, the 10 commandments, etc.

As far as being being "unapologetically Black", which means celebrating Black culture. For many years in the church, clapping, drums, shouting was looked down as being uncivilized. I know in my church clapping, shouting, even drums are still somewhat controversial. Black people have had to surpress cultural norms and worship in a more quiet style. Personally, I am not feeling the slogan, and I would not advocate that my personal church use it.

White churches do not have to say that they are "unapologetically White" because assumptions are made. One of my friends attends a church that used to be 98% white as the Blacks (mostly educated immigrants of the West Indies and Africa) the white people moved out. My aunt lives walking distance to her local denominational church and when she went to worship, they told her where the predominantly Black church was located. (Mind you, she did not ask for the information.) To me that is saying more than a slogan on a church website or bulletin. It is time for us to heal the racial wounds in this society because I believe we want the same good things in life. I would love to see diversity in church and that we learn from embrace all cultures.

The reason why there is hate is because we do not know each other or we have displaced anger with the wrong group of people. For example, there are people who dislike illegal immigrants, but the companies are the ones who are giving these folks jobs. So, I feel that we need to take this time in our nation's history to personally address our own prejudices and not put a microscope on someone else's ills. As John 8:7 states, "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her/him."

 

[athena123]

applediva, when Barack says that his pastor is his spiritual leader and this spiritual leader espouses such hate and divisiveness, I have to question Obama's judgement. If he really wants this country to be united and really wants to stand behind his inspiring speech that America is not white, it's not black, it's not red, it's not blue, then he shouldn't belong to such a church with such a leader. That's what I'm saying. And this church really seems to think that America is the enemy. Have you read some of the things wright has said? It goes far beyond the celebration of clapping, music and singing. Way beyond. wright [I won't capitalize his name he doesn't deserve it] should thank his lucky stars he lives in America and not some country like Iraq where such unpatriotic statements would lead to imprisonment or execution.

I agree with you in a desire to completely separate religion from politics. I get really burned out on candidates trying to show the country how freakin' pious they all are. But at this point in time, I have to wonder about Obama's 20 year relationship with a hate-monger like wright. How have Obama's views been shaped and molded in this span of years? How is he able to reconcile his avowed love for America while he goes to a service once a week and hears his pastor spew this kind of hatred?

I'm just grateful that at last Obama will have to answer to all of this.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AppleDiva White churches do not have to say that they are "unapologetically White" because assumptions are made.

Most predominately white churches don't have a pastor in the pulpit who denounces this lovely country in which we live. Most predominantly white churches preach love and compassion for all people regardless of race or color. And if the leader of a predominantly white church stood up and preached racism in his pulpit, he or she would be quickly booted out.

 

[AppleDiva]

Quote:

Originally Posted by athena123 applediva, when Barack says that his pastor is his spiritual leader and this spiritual leader espouses such hate and divisiveness, I have to question Obama's judgement. If he really wants this country to be united and really wants to stand behind his inspiring speech that America is not white, it's not black, it's not red, it's not blue, then he shouldn't belong to such a church with such a leader. That's what I'm saying. And this church really seems to think that America is the enemy. Have you read some of the things wright has said? It goes far beyond the celebration of clapping, music and singing. Way beyond. wright [I won't capitalize his name he doesn't deserve it] should thank his lucky stars he lives in America and not some country like Iraq where such unpatriotic statements would lead to imprisonment or execution. I agree with you in a desire to completely separate religion from politics. I get really burned out on candidates trying to show the country how freakin' pious they all are. But at this point in time, I have to wonder about Obama's 20 year relationship with a hate-monger like wright. How have Obama's views been shaped and molded in this span of years? How is he able to reconcile his avowed love for America while he goes to a service once a week and hears his pastor spew this kind of hatred? I'm just grateful that at last Obama will have to answer to all of this.

I am agreeing with you on some level that Barack's minister was inappropriate in stating those things in the sermons. I do not attend his church nor am I apart of his denomination, so I am not aware of ALL his sermons.

You have to remember the generation that Wright came from why he is all this anger (Tuskegee experiment, Jim Crow laws, etc) and I think that he should have not used his pulpit to say those things. Political speech, positive or negative, is not appropriate in the church. That is my problem with Wright. To be honest, I am not sure why Barack stuck around, but I think this will give him the mettle he needs for conducting diplomacy in the world. (Sidebar: in my church, our pastors rotate 5-7 years, so I cannot imagine having the same preacher for 20 years.)

Chris Rock told a joke in a comedy special about how older Black men are the most prejudice because they had to answer to the word "Boy", had to cross the street if the a white man was walking on the same sidewalk, etc and yet be men to provide for their families. Now that same old Black man can teach his children and grandchildren on how to navigate in this society to become better people in the world.

I think by Barack being bi-racial, raised by white grandparents, has a sister that is white and Indonesian, and other siblings that are multi-racial themselves, give him a good grasp on racial relations. If he did not have those experiences, he probably would not be able to call for unity because he has seen the good and bad in his pastor, the white and black communities.

That is why I liked in his speech when he address Black Americans, that yes the community has been wronged, but we must get past those things. I am Black immigrant and I have been saying this for years (well not years, but quite some time) that the community has got to get going on bettering the lives of members of the community. Where I come from, even if you are educated with multiple degrees in can be hard to find work. In this nation, with the rocky race relations, people are still able to do things. That is why there were riots in France. The young immigrants are going to school, getting advanced degrees and still no job. So I am glad that he addressed the Black community in that way, but that part seemed to have falling on deaf ears in the world of punditry.

I just hope that John McCain will have to answer for courting the pastors who awash in hate speech themselves.

Hillary is probably thankful that she is not a regular church goer or pastor is quite is tame.

 

[AppleDiva]

Quote:

Originally Posted by athena123 Most predominately white churches don't have a pastor in the pulpit who denounces this lovely country in which we live. Most predominantly white churches preach love and compassion for all people regardless of race or color. And if the leader of a predominantly white church stood up and preached racism in his pulpit, he or she would be quickly booted out.

Oh I definitely agree with that, which is why a white minister would not do that in this say and age. I am sure back in the day they did. I think the tactics are more subtle these days. I will say, it is good to see that some of the mega-churches are very diverse.

To be clear, many predominantly Black churches with Black pastors would not denounce America nor speak in divisive political speech.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AppleDiva You have to remember the generation that Wright came from why he is all this anger (Tuskegee experiment, Jim Crow laws, etc)

I'm sorry, but that doesn't excuse his words or actions. What does that have to do with his statements to the effect that somehow we deserved 911, or that our government purposely developed the aids virus? The guy is a nutjob!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AppleDiva I think that he should have not used his pulpit to say those things. Political speech, positive or negative, is not appropriate in the church. That is my problem with Wright. To be honest, I am not sure why Barack stuck around...

I'm with you 100% on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AppleDiva That is why I liked in his speech when he address Black Americans, that yes the community has been wronged, but we must get past those things. I am Black immigrant and I have been saying this for years (well not years, but quite some time) that the community has got to get going on bettering the lives of members of the community. Where I come from, even if you are educated with multiple degrees in can be hard to find work. In this nation, with the rocky race relations, people are still able to do things. That is why there were riots in France. The young immigrants are going to school, getting advanced degrees and still no job. So I am glad that he addressed the Black community in that way, but that part seemed to have falling on deaf ears in the world of punditry.

I was very heartened to hear this and yes, it did fall on a lot of deaf ears, just as Bill Cosby's speech a few years ago when he told the black community to quit blaming "the man" for all their problems and to look within. I think Larry Elder was one of the only prominent members of the Black community to support Bill Cosby while the likes of Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson totally reamed him.

apple, Do you have any links about John McCain's association with hatemongering churches? I thought I had heard something about this awhile back but he completely disavowed them.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AppleDiva Oh I definitely agree with that, which is why a white minister would not do that in this say and age. I am sure back in the day they did. I think the tactics are more subtle these days. I will say, it is good to see that some of the mega-churches are very diverse. To be clear, many predominantly Black churches with Black pastors would not denounce America nor speak in divisive political speech.

I agree Barack's church is an anomaly, and not at all typical of most predominantly black churches.

 

[AppleDiva]

Quote:

Originally Posted by athena123 I'm sorry, but that doesn't excuse his words or actions. What does that have to do with his statements to the effect that somehow we deserved 911, or that our government purposely developed the aids virus? The guy is a nutjob! I'm with you 100% on this. I was very heartened to hear this and yes, it did fall on a lot of deaf ears, just as Bill Cosby's speech a few years ago when he told the black community to quit blaming "the man" for all their problems and to look within. I think Larry Elder was one of the only prominent members of the Black community to support Bill Cosby while the likes of Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson totally reamed him. apple, Do you have any links about John McCain's association with hatemongering churches? I thought I had heard something about this awhile back but he completely disavowed them.

Dangit, I cannot do multi-quote from my browser.

Are you familiar with The Tuskegee Experiment? If you are not, check up on it. I think this particular situation added to the paranoia, especially among older Black people and about AIDS. I know people who you have to all but bribe them to go to the doctor, they are scared.


Definitely John Hagee. There are others. Remember how Falwell blamed Katrina and 9/11 on the gays and other marginalized groups. If he were still alive McCain would be courting him. He is only courting them because he wants votes. So each side has a lot to answer for. (Which is why there should be no religious test on either side.)

I was not against what Bill Cosby. I agreed 110% with him. Jesse Jackson (do not stone) has passed his time and Al Sharpton does a lot of good stuff (still don't stone me), but he gets caught up in the high-profile stuff that challenges his credibility. He speaks out a lot about the rap lyrics and misogyny of women, but those things do not get airplay. He does a lot for voters' rights.

Nice discussion.

 

[SparklingWaves]

Personally, I do not like pastors sticking their political views on the pulpit.

I remember vividly hearing pastors preaching that George Bush was a chosen man of God, so they wanted their congregation to get out an vote for God's man.

Then, I have heard pastors saying he was the anti-Christ.

I do not go to churches that preach politics.

That's not why I am there, but that is my belief.

 

[athena123]

ohmygod Falwell is SUCH a nutjobbie who doesn't have a whole lot of credibility among mainstream America. Yeah, the religious litmus test really needs to go. That'll only happen when we elect an atheist or agnostic [which I don't think would be a bad thing at all] as President.

I don't really think Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton are representative of Black America; I think the likes of Tiger Woods, Oprah Winfrey, Condaleeza Rice [ wish she'd run for President I would VOTE for that woman! ], Colin Powell, and actors like Will Smith, Jamie Foxx and Denzel Washington are more realistic beacons of success but that's just IMHO.

And yes, it is a nice discussion isn't it?

 

[AppleDiva]

Quote:

Originally Posted by athena123 ohmygod Falwell is SUCH a nutjobbie who doesn't have a whole lot of credibility among mainstream America. Yeah, the religious litmus test really needs to go. That'll only happen when we elect an atheist or agnostic [which I don't think would be a bad thing at all] as President. I don't really think Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton are representative of Black America; I think the likes of Tiger Woods, Oprah Winfrey, Condaleeza Rice [ wish she'd run for President I would VOTE for that woman! ], Colin Powell, and actors like Will Smith, Jamie Foxx and Denzel Washington are more realistic beacons of success but that's just IMHO. And yes, it is a nice discussion isn't it?

As a Christian, I would definitely vote for an atheist if we shared similar views on the issue.

I would not vote for Dr. Rice, but definitely General Powell (not because he is of West Indian heritage)

I like the list of names you mentioned, but there are more people in the community that have success stories that we can glean to for inspiration. If you have not African-American Lives (1 and 2) on PBS, you gotta check it out. That show is such an inspiration to me because people in the 21st century have no excuses because those slaves had nothing and some of them were able to purchase property and do other things. Like Dr. Ben Carson said, we have to stop looking to the rappers and athletes for inspiration because only a few of us can do those jobs, but look to people in the community at-large. Sometimes even in your own family (We have to learn our stories). We look to my grandmother, RIP, because she came her with nothing without her family and worked hard to make sure that my aunts and uncle could go to school and have a good life. We, my husband and I, will pass that down to our offspring, to know that he or she can do and will do better.

This is why I do not fault Barack for his preacher's words because he has learned from his pastor (ultimately) that division does not serve any American well. Even though Wright's anger comes from a real place, he should have been teaching his congregation a better way to live in the world, about FORGIVENESS, and how to love those who use and abuse you. If there is no forgiveness, hope cannot thrive. I pray that the new pastor will engage the congregation and say, "Yes We Can" despite the historical obstacles and current challenges. Ultimately for Christians, we know that life is hard, but God is always good.

 

[aziajs]

AppleDiva & SparklingWaves I agree with both of you. There is a time and place to say what he said and church isn't it. As a friend of mine said, people go to church to be inspired and guided and to hear the word of God. They do not go to church to attend a political rally.

As for what he said I will say this. I have only heard the soundbites that they continually play on the news. I have never attended the church and listened to any of his sermons in their entirety. I have a problem with the media plucking out soundbites and playing them in a loop to try to paint a specific picture or make a point. I'd like to hear the entire sermon and his comments made in context. From what I have heard I don't disagree with a lot of what he said.

 

[Dizzy]

I'm with aziajs- I'm not too fond of the media (of any country, for that matter) because I see them as wanting a story for entertainment first, the facts second.

On Mr. Wright- he does have freedom of speech, so while I might not like what he says I can't argue that he can say it. I find his actions and words distasteful from what I've seen and read.

I can't say I'm disappointed in Obama either, as I'm not a big fan of his in the first place. I'd prefer that any candidate with ties that to questionable people be thrown in the forefront regardless of party, race, gender, creed, etc. if only so people can make informed decisions.

I'd love to see Colin Powell run for office, but I don't think it's likely.

 

[SquirrelQueen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by athena123 applediva, when Barack says that his pastor is his spiritual leader and this spiritual leader espouses such hate and divisiveness, I have to question Obama's judgement. If he really wants this country to be united and really wants to stand behind his inspiring speech that America is not white, it's not black, it's not red, it's not blue, then he shouldn't belong to such a church with such a leader. That's what I'm saying. And this church really seems to think that America is the enemy. Have you read some of the things wright has said? It goes far beyond the celebration of clapping, music and singing. Way beyond. wright [I won't capitalize his name he doesn't deserve it] should thank his lucky stars he lives in America and not some country like Iraq where such unpatriotic statements would lead to imprisonment or execution. I agree with you in a desire to completely separate religion from politics. I get really burned out on candidates trying to show the country how freakin' pious they all are. But at this point in time, I have to wonder about Obama's 20 year relationship with a hate-monger like wright. How have Obama's views been shaped and molded in this span of years? How is he able to reconcile his avowed love for America while he goes to a service once a week and hears his pastor spew this kind of hatred? I'm just grateful that at last Obama will have to answer to all of this.

Athena, your point here is well-taken. Of course, there is another side---it is entirely possible that Wright's comments have been taken out of context and distorted to sound like hate speech. Nevertheless, it's troubling.

As you and other posters have pointed out, politics should never be preached from the pulpit. It's appropriate to pray for safety for our troops, wisdom for our government officials, and an end to social problems such as lack of health care, homelessness and poverty. It's completely wrong to endorse a candidate or even a political solution to these problems---yet, many clergy do exactly that.

As a member of the United Church of Christ (Obama's denomination) I am distressed that he was permitted to address the denomination's annual meeting last year, giving an overtly political speech. Many pundits consider his speech at General Synod to be his first major faith-related speech as a presidential hopeful. As a result, the UCC is being investigated by the IRS, questioning the tax-exempt status. Rev. John Thomas, the general minister and president of the UCC, is being a tad disingenuous when he claims that Obama's speech was not politically motivated. I think my denomination made a mistake---one that has certainly been made by other churches, both conservative and liberal---but a mistake that nevertheless has diluted Obama's message and heaped controversy not only onto his campaign but an entire Christian denomination.

Then again, Senator Joseph Lieberman has questioned the IRS investigation into the UCC because he feels the IRS had not given religious organizations clear guidelines as to what is and is not acceptable.

At any rate, I think what bothers me the most about this is that Obama is acting just like any other politician. He stood by Rev. Wright for twenty years, claimed that he was not only his friend but his spiritual advisor, and now he's distancing himself from his pastor's comments. I heard Obama on TV this weekend and he said that he was a regular churchgoer---in spurts---and that he didn't hear every single sermon his pastor gave. Whatever. This is politics as usual---Obama appears to adhere to the beliefs of his church and pastor when it's convenient and distance himself from outrageous statements (whether taken in or out of context) when they might harm his political ambitions.

BTW, I also have heard clergy preach that their congregations must vote for certain politicians because they were God-fearing, righteous people (yep, George W. Bush here) and because the political party opposed abortion rights, stem cell research and gun control. At some of those same churches, I've heard pastors say (albeit not from the pulpit) that Hillary is the Anti-Christ.

AppleDiva is right: what matters is the way each of us influences the others in our lives. How we raise our children---to be angry vs. compassionate, to be proactive vs. reactive, to improve each generation as time goes on---that's what matters more than anything some politician---or preacher---can say or do.

 

[AppleDiva]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SquirrelQueen Athena, your point here is well-taken. Of course, there is another side---it is entirely possible that Wright's comments have been taken out of context and distorted to sound like hate speech. Nevertheless, it's troubling. As you and other posters have pointed out, politics should never be preached from the pulpit. It's appropriate to pray for safety for our troops, wisdom for our government officials, and an end to social problems such as lack of health care, homelessness and poverty. It's completely wrong to endorse a candidate or even a political solution to these problems---yet, many clergy do exactly that. As a member of the United Church of Christ (Obama's denomination) I am distressed that he was permitted to address the denomination's annual meeting last year, giving an overtly political speech. Many pundits consider his speech at General Synod to be his first major faith-related speech as a presidential hopeful. As a result, the UCC is being investigated by the IRS, questioning the tax-exempt status. Rev. John Thomas, the general minister and president of the UCC, is being a tad disingenuous when he claims that Obama's speech was not politically motivated. I think my denomination made a mistake---one that has certainly been made by other churches, both conservative and liberal---but a mistake that nevertheless has diluted Obama's message and heaped controversy not only onto his campaign but an entire Christian denomination. Then again, Senator Joseph Lieberman has questioned the IRS investigation into the UCC because he feels the IRS had not given religious organizations clear guidelines as to what is and is not acceptable. At any rate, I think what bothers me the most about this is that Obama is acting just like any other politician. He stood by Rev. Wright for twenty years, claimed that he was not only his friend but his spiritual advisor, and now he's distancing himself from his pastor's comments. I heard Obama on TV this weekend and he said that he was a regular churchgoer---in spurts---and that he didn't hear every single sermon his pastor gave. Whatever. This is politics as usual---Obama appears to adhere to the beliefs of his church and pastor when it's convenient and distance himself from outrageous statements (whether taken in or out of context) when they might harm his political ambitions. BTW, I also have heard clergy preach that their congregations must vote for certain politicians because they were God-fearing, righteous people (yep, George W. Bush here) and because the political party opposed abortion rights, stem cell research and gun control. At some of those same churches, I've heard pastors say (albeit not from the pulpit) that Hillary is the Anti-Christ. AppleDiva is right: what matters is the way each of us influences the others in our lives. How we raise our children---to be angry vs. compassionate, to be proactive vs. reactive, to improve each generation as time goes on---that's what matters more than anything some politician---or preacher---can say or do.

You are right about that speech. Obama should not have given that speech at the session. (I am very adamant about that for both political parties. I hate when politicians come to my church for votes. They say something about how God is good all the time and high-tail it out when they are done. They do not even bother to fellowship with the congregation.)

This is why there should not be a religious litmus test.

Unfortunately, the IRS does not take action when other denominations (or Republicans) do the same thing.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AppleDiva You have to remember the generation that Wright came from why he is all this anger (Tuskegee experiment, Jim Crow laws, etc) and I think that he should have not used his pulpit to say those things.

I agree that he shouldn't use the pulpit to espouse his political beliefs. I also think that this pastor is a man of God and he should be teaching tolerance and forgiveness despite the indescretions and hatred experienced in the past. He should be urging his congregation to push forward to be better people...not bitching about the past and encouraging his congregation to continue to be angry. That's not going to solve anything, and it's only going to keep his congregation living in the past and do nothing for the future.

My take on Obama's involvement is about the same as Athena's. It makes me question his judgement. Not that I was going to vote for him anyway....but it's just one more reason.