Wow, Obama takes New Hampshire!

[Dizzy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by susannef As far as Ive understood, Obama is more liberal the Clinton? I dont understand why you conservative gals would rather vote for Obama then?

Hillary is corrupt; that's been proven time and time again. She's in it for the power and prestige, not for any reason that suits us common Americans. Check out her voting record, the investigations into her criminal activities in 1996, the money laundering schemes that she was involved in with Gore and her husband during his presidency, her work with the Robert Treuhaft law firms, and a laundry list of other actions that contradict what she says she stands for. I'm not against a female for president (and she's far from being the first to run for the position), but I'm against Hillary Clinton for president- she just doesn't understand the common American and her policies don't reflect change, they reflect oppression and more un-Constitutional methods.

Also, think of the entire generation that grew up in (basically) a political dynasty. I was born in Aug of 1987- the last few months of the Reagan Administration. Then George HW Bush was president, followed by 2 terms of Bill Clinton, followed by 2 terms of George W Bush, and now to have all of those debacles followed by another Clinton term? I want a new person in office, preferably someone who has had nothing to do with these to families.

I'm not an Obama fan either, but then again I'm not a Democrat anyway. I just dislike the Clintons more than anyone else. But that's just my take on the situation

 

[lilMAClady]

To me, it seems that people get so chugged up on petty details that they forget what's truly important. So what Hillary's a woman, so what Obama is bi-racial and so what Mc Cain, or Romney are conservative. It should be about who is going to do the most good for the most people. Noone is going to be completely satisfied with each candidate. There WILL be a flaw in all of them because we're all human. People like to say well I voted for Bush, he's Christian and against abortion! Well I say who cares what he says, what has he done? In my opinion he's a terrible president. A crazy man. So, you may not agree for various reasons. Ok. I can live with that. But honestly anyone you vote for is going to deviate from what they say once they get into office because like it or not they didn't get there by themselves. They have made promises and if they expect to have a smooth term they had better keep them. ALL candidates in-directly answer every question ALL the time. They don't tell the truth, they give sugar coated blanket statements that will prayerfully satisfy more people than the other guy AND so they can't be quoted on MSNBC later for saying something different than what they said in 1982 and called a "Flip-Flopper. It's a terrible, sick, sad game that only the wealthy and influential win. I just pray that whoever does become the next prez they try to rectify whats going wrong HERE and help make the world as a WHOLE a better palce. I don't know if my ballot truly counts or not, but I will be there to cast it. Too many people died for this right for me not to.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilMAClady I don't know if my ballot truly counts or not, but I will be there to cast it. Too many people died for this right for me not to.

It's frustrating when it comes to casting your vote. No one will be completely aligned with what's important to you; in the end, you may wind up voting for someone you think will do the least amount of harm.

The last presidential election, I choked down my vote for Bush not because I was voting FOR him, but because I was voting against Kerry. I'll be very glad to see the Bush Clinton Bush dynasty come to an end and am hoping that this year won't be a vote AGAINST the other guy, but a vote FOR someone who I think will be the best person for the job. I'm actually excited by a couple of candidates right now and feeling a lot more optimistic about our next president, whoever that may be.

 

[lipstickandhate]

I can't stand ANY of the candidates. All I know is if Mike Huckabee wins ANYTHING other than Iowa, I'm moving!

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lipstickandhate I can't stand ANY of the candidates. All I know is if Mike Huckabee wins ANYTHING other than Iowa, I'm moving!

LOL, I just may join you! I've certainly had my fill of fundamentalism in the White House to vote for someone who doesn't believe in evolution!

 

[Cosmopolitics]

I think out of all the candidates, I like John McCain the best. He sounded really PRESIDENTIAL the other night, when he took New Hampshire for the Republicans.

I really don't mind Hillary, and I don't really mind Obama either. Both have their positives and negatives, hell, every candidate does. But that's politics. No one's going to agree with a candidate 100% of the time.

However, I find Edwards and especially Romney shady. Huckabee seems nice as a person but I don't like his policies at all. You're supposed to be taking the issues at hand and a candidate's work ethic more seriously than a candidate's personality. I think with Huckabee we'd be getting more of the same crap we're going through now, with 50% more neoconservatism. I dread Romney winning the nomination but if even he did that it would be an easy win for the Democrats. I don't mind either Hillary or Obama taking the nomination but I do question Obama's experience and seriousness a bit. His days in the Senate have been him not really being in the Senate because he's been campaigning for President.

 

[Suzyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MxAxC-_ATTACK I honestly, would be frightened if Hilary became President. I'm a Conservative but I am registered as a Democrat (I registered in high school when I followed whatever anyone told me ) So I have to vote Democrat in the Primary's, I will be Voting for Obama , for the soul purpose of not wanting Hilary to win.

I agree with this. I think our country would have many problems if Hillary wins. I don't classify myself as republican or democrat, I vote for whoever I like and Hillary is definately not it.

i found this on tshirthell.com. Sorry if it offends anyone. I just thought it was funny.

I think I find myself buying one of these shirts...

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lipstickandhate I can't stand ANY of the candidates. All I know is if Mike Huckabee wins ANYTHING other than Iowa, I'm moving!

You and me both.


I don't identify myself with a particular party or leaning because I'm all over the map. The one thing I know for absolute certainty is that I will not vote for someone who supports the idea of amending the Constitution to ban gay marriage. Ever. At all. Period.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Two words: Third Party.

I vote Green but I'm not advocating that party necessarily.

The problem for me with the two party system is that you have super liberals and moderates in the Dems and super conservatives and moderates in the Republicans. For me, because I define myself as more of a super liberal type, I vote Green party (of course, I do read about the particular person before I vote).

I wish more people would look into other parties.

I really wish Obama's race and Hillary's gender weren't an issue. I wouldn't vote Hillary if she were a man nor do I think Obama should be voted for because he's black. I was always disappointed when I heard staunch liberals say they'd vote Condi Rice if she ran, because she's a black woman. WTF? It's good to see that a non-white person or female can get the votes, b ut that should be, at the most, a tie breaker, not a defining reason.

 

[liv]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizzy Hillary is corrupt; that's been proven time and time again. She's in it for the power and prestige, not for any reason that suits us common Americans. Check out her voting record, the investigations into her criminal activities in 1996, the money laundering schemes that she was involved in with Gore and her husband during his presidency, her work with the Robert Treuhaft law firms, and a laundry list of other actions that contradict what she says she stands for. I'm not against a female for president (and she's far from being the first to run for the position), but I'm against Hillary Clinton for president- she just doesn't understand the common American and her policies don't reflect change, they reflect oppression and more un-Constitutional methods. Also, think of the entire generation that grew up in (basically) a political dynasty. I was born in Aug of 1987- the last few months of the Reagan Administration. Then George HW Bush was president, followed by 2 terms of Bill Clinton, followed by 2 terms of George W Bush, and now to have all of those debacles followed by another Clinton term? I want a new person in office, preferably someone who has had nothing to do with these to families. I'm not an Obama fan either, but then again I'm not a Democrat anyway. I just dislike the Clintons more than anyone else. But that's just my take on the situation

We're about the same age, so I'm confused by all this contempt you apparently have for the Clinton family. We were in grade school when Bill was in office, so unless you watched CNN instead of Cartoon Network and actively educated yourself on the matter, obviously all of these views are not based solely on your opinions, but what, most likely, your parents/relatives told you. I feel that if you were merely researching her in hindsight, you wouldn't have these same strong feelings as you would if you were politically active during the Clinton terms.
There were several Councils convened to investigate all of those claims, and all of them had insufficient evidence. As for your other claims, they're vague blanket statements that don't prove or disprove anything.
Then again, I've never understood all the hatred for Hillary, and I don't judge her for staying with her husband. I know that in many families/religions, divorce is severely looked down upon. We weren't raised in her household, and to understand one's message you first have to understand their background and culture. Don't judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

 

[Dizzy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by liv We're about the same age, so I'm confused by all this contempt you apparently have for the Clinton family. We were in grade school when Bill was in office, so unless you watched CNN instead of Cartoon Network and actively educated yourself on the matter, obviously all of these views are not based solely on your opinions, but what, most likely, your parents/relatives told you. I feel that if you were merely researching her in hindsight, you wouldn't have these same strong feelings as you would if you were politically active during the Clinton terms.

I'm a poli sci and history double major- for the last three years I've studied recent politics in depth, and have done part of my senior thesis (thus far) on the Clinton family and the path the Administration began to take us down. I've held internships in politics on the local and state level for the last two years. My father was extremely involved in politics when I was younger, and has tapes and newspapers of/with the coverage of the Whitewater scandal, most of which you can still find online. My research from the Clintons doesn't come from just media outlets, but from her own voting record (which is public record and thus freely available for anyone) along with said media coverage of the events. This is where my distaste for Hillary stems from.

And being politically active at 9 isn't something most kids do; but people in my major usually do go back and investigate these scandals- in my case, I've had to, as it's been required for some of my classes.

Quote:

There were several Councils convened to investigate all of those claims, and all of them had insufficient evidence. As for your other claims, they're vague blanket statements that don't prove or disprove anything. Then again, I've never understood all the hatred for Hillary, and I don't judge her for staying with her husband. I know that in many families/religions, divorce is severely looked down upon. We weren't raised in her household, and to understand one's message you first have to understand their background and culture. Don't judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

I'm not here to do your research for you- most of this is a matter of public record and many places archived the information as it was happening. But, here you go anyway.

Her voting record
Her not reporting almost $2M in donations for her campaign for the Senate
Clintons use foundation to violate donation laws
Touches on her work with the Treuhaft law firm
And who can forget-- Whitewater!!
Other Hillary Investigations

*I hate using Wikipedia as a source, but I'm pressed for time right now. Sorry.

These allegations are not vague- they're easily researched if someone takes the time to do it.

And quite frankly, I'll judge whomever I want, especially if they're running for the highest office in my country. I'll scruitinize them as much as I want- it's my responsibility to vote and part of that responsibility is judging their potential as a leader. I'm not going to pat her on the back because she can cry and stay with a serial cheater, along with going on and on about a foundation of "change" when that has yet to be proven- just because you can cry on cue and plant questions beneficial to you in a forum doesn't give you credibility in the political world.

Even without the personal problems, I don't like Hillary's record, her unsupported platform and I don't agree with her plan for America should she become President. I'm an of-age voting citizen, I pay my taxes, and I can judge her however I want. She put herself on the public stage, she has to be judged for the position. Her background and culture have nothing to do with this; her record does.

 

[Beauty Mark]

I don't hate Hillary, but there are plenty of reasons to dislike her besides her family, much like I can go on a list of reasons I hate the current president without discussing his personal life.

Part of Obama's appeal is that he's so new that he hasn't given people a reason to hate him yet.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizzy , I'll judge whomever I want, especially if they're running for the highest office in my country. I'll scruitinize them as much as I want- it's my responsibility to vote and part of that responsibility is judging their potential as a leader. I'm not going to pat her on the back because she can cry and stay with a serial cheater, along with going on and on about a foundation of "change" when that has yet to be proven- just because you can cry on cue and plant questions beneficial to you in a forum doesn't give you credibility in the political world. Even without the personal problems, I don't like Hillary's record, her unsupported platform and I don't agree with her plan for America should she become President. I'm an of-age voting citizen, I pay my taxes, and I can judge her however I want. She put herself on the public stage, she has to be judged for the position. Her background and culture have nothing to do with this; her record does.

A. friggin. men.

 

[liv]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizzy I'm a poli sci and history double major- for the last three years I've studied recent politics in depth, and have done part of my senior thesis (thus far) on the Clinton family and the path the Administration began to take us down. I've held internships in politics on the local and state level for the last two years. My father was extremely involved in politics when I was younger, and has tapes and newspapers of/with the coverage of the Whitewater scandal, most of which you can still find online. My research from the Clintons doesn't come from just media outlets, but from her own voting record (which is public record and thus freely available for anyone) along with said media coverage of the events. This is where my distaste for Hillary stems from. And being politically active at 9 isn't something most kids do; but people in my major usually do go back and investigate these scandals- in my case, I've had to, as it's been required for some of my classes. I'm not here to do your research for you- most of this is a matter of public record and many places archived the information as it was happening. But, here you go anyway. Her voting record Her not reporting almost $2M in donations for her campaign for the Senate Clintons use foundation to violate donation laws Touches on her work with the Treuhaft law firm And who can forget-- Whitewater!! Other Hillary Investigations *I hate using Wikipedia as a source, but I'm pressed for time right now. Sorry. These allegations are not vague- they're easily researched if someone takes the time to do it. And quite frankly, I'll judge whomever I want, especially if they're running for the highest office in my country. I'll scruitinize them as much as I want- it's my responsibility to vote and part of that responsibility is judging their potential as a leader. I'm not going to pat her on the back because she can cry and stay with a serial cheater, along with going on and on about a foundation of "change" when that has yet to be proven- just because you can cry on cue and plant questions beneficial to you in a forum doesn't give you credibility in the political world. Even without the personal problems, I don't like Hillary's record, her unsupported platform and I don't agree with her plan for America should she become President. I'm an of-age voting citizen, I pay my taxes, and I can judge her however I want. She put herself on the public stage, she has to be judged for the position. Her background and culture have nothing to do with this; her record does.

You are obviously well versed in politics, and I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it, but c'est la vie. I have done my research, and I still find, personally, that she hadn't done anything that made me dislike her as a potential candidate, but if you have, that's your prerogative. I just find that most people dislike her and when I ask why, they regurgitate some spoon-fed media line, rather than have more concrete reasons.
Anyway, I'm not here to change anyone's opinion, or bash on anyone (not that you are) but talking politics is already difficult enough when it's face to face discussion, and this is far more frustrating to me given this is an online forum. So I think I'm done for now. =]
<slowly backs out of thread>

 

[Dizzy]

You're absolutely right- to each their own.

But don't discount the political threads on Specktra- the ones with the debates here are usually really interesting. We've got a few people here who can debate (respectfully, at that) like nobody's business

.

 

[liv]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizzy You're absolutely right- to each their own. But don't discount the political threads on Specktra- the ones with the debates here are usually really interesting. We've got a few people here who can debate (respectfully, at that) like nobody's business .

I second that.

Oh, I'm not, they are fun to read; however, I don't have the debating finesse that they do, and since it's so easy to take things as offensive or out of context (since you don't know the person and can't hear intonation), I'd rather just read them to educate myself further and not stick my foot in my mouth. =]

Election '08 is going to be mighty interesting!

 

[*Stargazer*]

The problem I constantly come across when someone asks me why I don't like Hillary is that they IMMEDIATELY discount my reason. Because as far as they are concerned, nothing she has done is egregious enough to justify my dislike of her. So I must be brainwashed by the media.

I hate that attitude.

 

[liv]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* The problem I constantly come across when someone asks me why I don't like Hillary is that they IMMEDIATELY discount my reason. Because as far as they are concerned, nothing she has done is egregious enough to justify my dislike of her. So I must be brainwashed by the media. I hate that attitude.

Yeah, there are always two sides to an opinion. I'm usually on the opposite side, except it's not like I'm some huge Hillary supporter, I just don't like when people say they like her, and then have no reasons to back it up. Like Dizzy, who has several points of speculation/fact that she finds a problem with, and that's awesome. If someone has convictions and can back them up, then you aren't media brainwashed, you're smart and you've done your homework and have an informed opinion.

 

[Beauty Mark]

People who often assert media brainwash (oh, it happens with me and my hatred of the current president/most liberal ideals I have) when people have decent arguments are often brainwashed themselves by the media. They can't come up with a reason to like the person.

 

[SquirrelQueen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by athena123 As far as the Trinity United Church of Christ goes [Obama and Oprah are members], the obvious racist attitudes are what frighten me. The tenets of that church border on very cult-like exclusiveness; the pastor disavows American middleclassness as not being "black valued". Huh? It's my understanding that values, ethics and morality apply to all, regardless of race, gender, religion or creed. Can you imagine the outcry if a pastor of any other church spoke out for "white values"? The outrage would be enormous, but strangely enough there was no outcry toward a pastor who thinks of his flock as "Soldiers for Black Freedom" and the "Black Value System". If this is supposed to be a rant against materialism, why not say so and why use such divisive terms?

I agee with you completely that values, ethics and morality apply to all, regardless of race, gender, religion or creed. The thing is, there has been a smear campaign against Obama's faith, and the fears many people have about his religion are based on inaccurate portrayals by those who have a political agenda and want to want to discredit Obama. As Gigglegirl posted, Fox News has been very aggressive in spreading stories about the alleged racism of Obama's church. I'm sorry---Fox News is not "fair and balanced" as it claims to be. My son found this clip on YouTube and, frankly, it's chilling. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY04gIruZ4E

Here's an excerpt from a letter from John Thomas, the head of the United Church of Christ, that was posted on the denomination's website:

Quote:

Since Obama won the Iowa caucuses on Jan. 3, a flurry of e-mail messages with identical language and sentiment began circulating across the internet, claiming that Trinity UCC was a "racist" congregation because of its long-stated church motto: "Unashamedly Black, Unapologetically Christian." "Trinity UCC is rooted in and proud of its Afrocentric heritage," Thomas said. "This is no different than the hundreds of UCC churches from the German Evangelical and Reformed stream that continue to own and celebrate their German heritage, insisting on annual sausage and sauerkraut dinners and singing Stille Nacht on Christmas Eve. Recognizing and celebrating our distinctive racial-ethnic heritages, cultures, languages and customs are what make us unique as a united and uniting denomination." While Trinity UCC is predominately African American, it does include and welcome non-Black members. The Rev. Jane Fisler-Hoffman, Illinois Conference Minister, who is white, has been a member of the congregation for years. "Trinity is a destination church for many members of the UCC, a multi-racial, multi-cultural denomination that is largely Caucasian," Thomas pointed out. "When in Chicago, many UCC members flock to Trinity to share in and learn from its vibrant ministries, dynamic worship and justice-minded membership. Contrary to the claims made in these hateful emails, UCC members know Trinity to be one of the most welcoming, hospitable and generous congregations in our denomination."

http://www.ucc.org/news/thomas-denounces-smear-1.html

As Gigglegirl pointed out, there are churches that do teach a doctrine of exclusion. Not many are blatantly racist---those that are tend to be fringe churches that cater to white supremacists. However, many are sexist and do not permit women to be pastors or even vote in congregational matters. Others are homophobic and bar gays from membership or receiving communion. I know pastors from fundamentalist churches who have written letters to the members of other congregations that have chosen to have female or gay clergy. There was one gay UCC pastor who was met by protest when he moved to his community---other clergy in the area felt it necessary to picket his home. What difference did it make to them if he was gay? His church knew he was gay when they called him.

Getting back to the issue about Obama and his faith, I think part of the problem is that people don't know that much about the UCC. Actually, I had been only marginally aware of the denomination before I met (and later married) a UCC pastor. I don't completely agree with Obama's pastor (and, incidentally, neither does he) but I do feel comfortable with Obama as a man of faith and I'm certain that he would not discriminate against anyone if he was President. (BTW, no I haven't had the opportunity to worship at Trinity UCC but I hope someday I do.)

I think it's interesting to hear why people are in favor or against certain candidates. It's sobering to hear the negativity toward Hillary---how much of it is really her and how much of it is garbage that we've gotten from the likes of Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh? I used to be against Hillary myself but then I learned more about her from her books and from truly objective sources and now I support her. Although---I think Obama could be an excellent leader and, on the Republican side, I'm impressed with John McCain's leadership as well.

I just hope we get competent, thoughtful leadership to guide this country through the many challenges we currently face.