How British women are disciminated in the workplace because they are pregnant

ratmist

Well-known member
I realise some of the nitty-gritty of this article relates to the UK law system, but I think it applies elsewhere in the world, particularly America.

Kira Cochrane on how women are discriminated at work because they are pregnant | Money | The Guardian

Picture this. You're a woman in your early 40s, and have been employed at a firm you love for the past 12 years. You have always been committed, enthusiastic, and your hard work has paid off - you manage a big team and budget, are a recognised leader in your field, and are now just one rung away from that ultimate prize: a seat on the board.

Ten weeks ago you became pregnant with twins, but have miscarried one, which has naturally made you worried about the overall prospects for the pregnancy. While you would ordinarily wait another fortnight before telling anyone at work that you are pregnant, you want to be able to leave for hospital in a hurry, and so, to avoid awkward questions, you decide to inform your HR director. Two days later, you're called for a meeting with a board director. You have to resign immediately, he says.

This is what happened to Ruth Holloway last year. In that meeting with the board director, she found herself "sitting opposite this man who knew that I was pregnant and having a tough time. I said to him, 'Well, what are my options Bob?' and he said 'take a cheque, or just see what happens.' Essentially I was told that if I didn't agree to leave, they were going to make life incredibly difficult for me. They would take away key members of my team, key responsibilities too, until they could justify making me redundant."

While Holloway's story is extreme, she is by no means alone. In 2005, the Equal Opportunities Commission estimated that 30,000 women in the UK are pushed out of their jobs due to pregnancy each year - that is 7% of all pregnant women in the workforce at any one time - and since they are being attacked when they are often low on resources and wary of a fight, it remains largely a hidden problem, with only 3% of cases going to tribunal. And it's not just being fired or made redundant that's a problem. Discrimination means that many mothers and women of childbearing age simply aren't being given jobs in the first place. Last year, the Equalities Review, commissioned by the government, found that mothers face more discrimination in the workplace than any other group. A woman with a child under 11 is 45% less likely to be employed than a man, and that figure is 49% for a single mother. Citing a survey of 122 recruitment agencies, the Equalities Review, found that more than 70% had been asked by clients to avoid hiring pregnant women or those of childbearing age - which, given that that period now potentially stretches from our teenage years to our early sixties, means discriminating against any woman of working age.

It's an astonishing situation to be in at the start of the 21st century - that is, until you consider some of the antiquated attitudes that still abound when it comes to the idea of women having access to what men always have, that basic combination that is actually being referred to when people sneer about pushy women wanting to "have it all": a career and a family.

Over the past few months these attitudes have been starkly embodied by the most prominent business person in the country, Alan Sugar, who has specifically questioned the long-standing law stating that employers can't ask at interview whether a candidate has or plans to have children, a law that forms the foundation of anti-discrimination legislation. Sugar defends his position by saying that getting rid of the law would be good for women. Talking to the Daily Telegraph earlier this year, Sugar said that employers "would like to ask, 'are you planning to get married and have any children?' These laws are counterproductive for women, that's the bottom line, you're not allowed to ask, so it's easy - just don't employ them." In an article he wrote for the Daily Mirror, Sugar made the observation that "women should be allowed the opportunity to explain how their home life will not disrupt their work, rather than have their job hopes binned due to guesswork". Essentially, his phrasing suggests that women are to be held to ransom. Either we accept being asked whether we have or plan to have a family - understanding that if we say yes, our job prospects will diminish - or we face having those prospects undermined entirely anyway.

(etc - the link to the article is above)

The article is quite concise and I agree with it. What do you think?
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
I think that's terrible discrimination for that poor woman.

On a more selfish note, I wonder if that's partially why in interviews, they ask about future plans.
 

purrtykitty

Well-known member
I agree, too. Frankly, my "future plans" are none of anyone's business, except me and my husband. Really, who cares whether a person has children or not? I understand that people with children tend to miss work more and all that, but if a mother is getting all her work done, managing her time properly, etc...then what's the problem? If a parent's work is suffering because of his/her children, then that should be reflected in the performance review...that's what those are for.

The thing that irritates me more is that a father is given much more leeway, even though he might be every bit as attentive of a parent as a mother in his office. Preganacy is only nine months, and tack on a couple more for maternity leave. After that, (in a perfect world) parenting responsibilities should be shouldered by both parents. Why aren't fathers getting any flak?
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
I think that's terrible discrimination for that poor woman.

On a more selfish note, I wonder if that's partially why in interviews, they ask about future plans.


Well, in the UK it's absolutely completely illegal to ask about a person's family or their plans for his/her family during a job interview. And yet, I know many women who've been asked if they're planning to have children during job interviews. It's just extremely frustrating.
 

purrtykitty

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratmist
Well, in the UK it's absolutely completely illegal to ask about a person's family or their plans for his/her family during a job interview. And yet, I know many women who've been asked if they're planning to have children during job interviews. It's just extremely frustrating.

I believe it is illegal in the US, although I haven't taken and Employment Law, so I'm not 100% sure on that.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrtykitty
The thing that irritates me more is that a father is given much more leeway, even though he might be every bit as attentive of a parent as a mother in his office. Preganacy is only nine months, and tack on a couple more for maternity leave. After that, (in a perfect world) parenting responsibilities should be shouldered by both parents. Why aren't fathers getting any flak?

I think from the employer's point of view, it comes down to the perception of who's caring for the child full-time. Even if, in reality, it is a two-carer household, employers still seem to believe that women are providing more childcare and thus will not be as available to work. It's unfair to both fathers and mothers.
 

Girl about town

Well-known member
Its quite shocking what happened to the holloway woman, but at the end of the day some jobs aren't compatible with having kids, a lot of male dominated professions don't see why they have to make concessions for women who decide they want kids and they make sure woman who ask for any sort of concessions are made to feel a failure. I was lucky i work in a female doinated career (Nursing) and had full employer support and pay and still do even though my son is 4 xxx
 

Girl about town

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrtykitty
IThe thing that irritates me more is that a father is given much more leeway, even though he might be every bit as attentive of a parent as a mother in his office. Preganacy is only nine months, and tack on a couple more for maternity leave. After that, (in a perfect world) parenting responsibilities should be shouldered by both parents. Why aren't fathers getting any flak?

That annoys me too woman are made to feel like they have a cheek wanting to have a child and a career, where as a man could have 10 kids and still rise to the top of his profession because his little wife is doing all the childcare x
 

V15U4L_3RR0R

Well-known member
Honestly it doesn't surprise me but it does anger me. Women still don't have equal rights in the work place or equal pay for that matter. We still haven't quite let go of old attitudes.
 

lipstickandhate

Well-known member
The Pregnancy Discrimination Act is an amendment to Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Discrimination on the basis of pregnancy, childbirth, or related medical conditions constitutes unlawful sex discrimination under Title VII, which covers employers with 15 or more employees, including state and local governments. Title VII also applies to employment agencies and to labor organizations, as well as to the federal government. Women who are pregnant or affected by related conditions must be treated in the same manner as other applicants or employees with similar abilities or limitations.

Title VII's pregnancy-related protections include:

Hiring
An employer cannot refuse to hire a pregnant woman because of her pregnancy, because of a pregnancy-related condition or because of the prejudices of co-workers, clients, or customers.

Pregnancy and Maternity Leave
An employer may not single out pregnancy-related conditions for special procedures to determine an employee's ability to work. However, if an employer requires its employees to submit a doctor's statement concerning their inability to work before granting leave or paying sick benefits, the employer may require employees affected by pregnancy-related conditions to submit such statements.

If an employee is temporarily unable to perform her job due to pregnancy, the employer must treat her the same as any other temporarily disabled employee. For example, if the employer allows temporarily disabled employees to modify tasks, perform alternative assignments or take disability leave or leave without pay, the employer also must allow an employee who is temporarily disabled due to pregnancy to do the same.

Pregnant employees must be permitted to work as long as they are able to perform their jobs. If an employee has been absent from work as a result of a pregnancy-related condition and recovers, her employer may not require her to remain on leave until the baby's birth. An employer also may not have a rule that prohibits an employee from returning to work for a predetermined length of time after childbirth.

Employers must hold open a job for a pregnancy-related absence the same length of time jobs are held open for employees on sick or disability leave.

Health Insurance

Any health insurance provided by an employer must cover expenses for pregnancy-related conditions on the same basis as costs for other medical conditions. Health insurance for expenses arising from abortion is not required, except where the life of the mother is endangered.

Pregnancy-related expenses should be reimbursed exactly as those incurred for other medical conditions, whether payment is on a fixed basis or a percentage of reasonable-and-customary-charge basis.

The amounts payable by the insurance provider can be limited only to the same extent as amounts payable for other conditions. No additional, increased, or larger deductible can be imposed.

Employers must provide the same level of health benefits for spouses of male employees as they do for spouses of female employees.

Fringe Benefits
Pregnancy-related benefits cannot be limited to married employees. In an all-female workforce or job classification, benefits must be provided for pregnancy-related conditions if benefits are provided for other medical conditions.

If an employer provides any benefits to workers on leave, the employer must provide the same benefits for those on leave for pregnancy-related conditions.

Employees with pregnancy-related disabilities must be treated the same as other temporarily disabled employees for accrual and crediting of seniority, vacation calculation, pay increases, and temporary disability benefits.

It is also unlawful to retaliate against an individual for opposing employment practices that discriminate based on pregnancy or for filing a discrimination charge, testifying, or participating in any way in an investigation, proceeding, or litigation under Title VII.

Statistics
In Fiscal Year 2007, EEOC received 5,587 charges of pregnancy-based discrimination. EEOC resolved 4,979 pregnancy discrimination charges in FY 2007 and recovered $30.0 million in monetary benefits for charging parties and other aggrieved individuals (not including monetary benefits obtained through litigation).



Welcome to America. At least we try.
 

lipstickandhate

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrtykitty
The thing that irritates me more is that a father is given much more leeway, even though he might be every bit as attentive of a parent as a mother in his office. Preganacy is only nine months, and tack on a couple more for maternity leave. After that, (in a perfect world) parenting responsibilities should be shouldered by both parents. Why aren't fathers getting any flak?

I don't understand this comment. Could you clarify it a bit for me?
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by lipstickandhate
For example, if the employer allows temporarily disabled employees to modify tasks, perform alternative assignments or take disability leave or leave without pay, the employer also must allow an employee who is temporarily disabled due to pregnancy to do the same.
Fringe Benefits
Employees with pregnancy-related disabilities must be treated the same as other temporarily disabled employees for accrual and crediting of seniority, vacation calculation, pay increases, and temporary disability benefits.

It is also unlawful to retaliate against an individual for opposing employment practices that discriminate based on pregnancy or for filing a discrimination charge, testifying, or participating in any way in an investigation, proceeding, or litigation under Title VII.

Welcome to America. At least we try.


I hate that American women don't get statutory maternity leave and pay and are treated as though they are disabled due to pregnancy. It's disgusting and it's wrong.
 

redambition

Well-known member
ratmist - I think you're taking that bit about being disabled the wrong way.

it's referring to a situation where a woman is unable to perform her job role because she is pregnant (say, a role in an industrial setting that requires heavy lifting and lots of physical work) - she must get the same treatment as would be extended to an employee who cannot perform the role due to temporary disability such as an injury.

i agree that the wording is odd (and seems insensitive and cold), but in a legal sense disability is the right term and it's used correctly in this context.

i also have a question to ask of you - is paid maternity leave a requirement in the UK? over here, i have not personally encountered much of an attitude toward discriminating against women of child bearing age... but in australia there's no legal requirement for an employer to offer paid maternity leave. this makes it tough for the young family... but means it's easier for an employer to hire a temporary contractor as a replacement while a female employee takes the time off.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by redambition
ratmist - I think you're taking that bit about being disabled the wrong way.

it's referring to a situation where a woman is unable to perform her job role because she is pregnant (say, a role in an industrial setting that requires heavy lifting and lots of physical work) - she must get the same treatment as would be extended to an employee who cannot perform the role due to temporary disability such as an injury.

i agree that the wording is odd (and seems insensitive and cold), but in a legal sense disability is the right term and it's used correctly in this context.


I see what you're saying, but I still object to the term. Women who are pregnant are not ill, disabled, or otherwise incapacitated; they're pregnant. There should be no need to make disabled people equivalent to pregnant women in order to protect a pregnant woman's rights at the workplace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redambition
i also have a question to ask of you - is paid maternity leave a requirement in the UK? over here, i have not personally encountered much of an attitude toward discriminating against women of child bearing age... but in australia there's no legal requirement for an employer to offer paid maternity leave. this makes it tough for the young family... but means it's easier for an employer to hire a temporary contractor as a replacement while a female employee takes the time off.

Yes. Statutory Maternity Pay is known as SMP.

(From www.direct.gov.uk):

If your baby is due on or after 1 April 2007 you can get SMP for up to 39 weeks, as long as you meet the conditions. If your baby was due earlier than this then SMP is for up to 26 weeks.

If you have the right to receive SMP, you'll get it even if you decide to leave your job before you start receiving SMP. You don't have to repay it if you decide not to go back to work or leave your job whilst getting SMP.

If you are employed you can choose when you want your SMP to start, this will normally coincide with your Ordinary Maternity Leave. Unless your baby is born sooner, the earliest SMP can start is 11 weeks before the week your baby is due.

If you get SMP, your employer will pay you 90 per cent of your average weekly earnings for the first six weeks, then up to £117.18 for the remaining 33 weeks (or 20 weeks if your expected week of childbirth begins earlier than 1 April 2007). You pay tax and National Insurance in the same way as on your regular wages.

If you can't get SMP from your employer, you might get Maternity Allowance (MA) if you:

  • are employed
  • are self-employed and pay Class 2 National Insurance contributions or
  • have a Small Earnings Exception certificate
  • are not employed but have worked close to or during your pregnancy


The conditions are that you:

  • worked (either on an employed or self employed basis) for at least 26 of the 66 weeks before the week your baby was due (a part week counts as a full week).
  • earned an average of £30 over any 13 of those 66 weeks


The standard rate of MA is £117.18 or 90 per cent of your average weekly earnings, whichever is less. If your expected week of childbirth begins on or after 1 April 2007, it is paid for up to 39 weeks. If your expected week of childbirth was earlier than this then it is paid for up to 26 weeks. MA is not liable to income tax or NI contributions.
 

redambition

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratmist
I see what you're saying, but I still object to the term. Women who are pregnant are not ill, disabled, or otherwise incapacitated; they're pregnant. There should be no need to make disabled people equivalent to pregnant women in order to protect a pregnant woman's rights at the workplace.

I hate the fact that a pregnant woman has to be protected by the laws that cover injured/disabled workers... because there's no specific law for pregnant women! i agree with you - i also hate that wording. it's unfortunate that pregnancy has to be referred to like that.

Quote:
Yes. Statutory Maternity Pay is known as SMP.

(From www.direct.gov.uk):

If your baby is due on or after 1 April 2007 you can get SMP for up to 39 weeks, as long as you meet the conditions. If your baby was due earlier than this then SMP is for up to 26 weeks.

If you have the right to receive SMP, you'll get it even if you decide to leave your job before you start receiving SMP. You don't have to repay it if you decide not to go back to work or leave your job whilst getting SMP.

If you are employed you can choose when you want your SMP to start, this will normally coincide with your Ordinary Maternity Leave. Unless your baby is born sooner, the earliest SMP can start is 11 weeks before the week your baby is due.

If you get SMP, your employer will pay you 90 per cent of your average weekly earnings for the first six weeks, then up to £117.18 for the remaining 33 weeks (or 20 weeks if your expected week of childbirth begins earlier than 1 April 2007). You pay tax and National Insurance in the same way as on your regular wages.

thanks for all that info
smiles.gif
and as much as it disgusts me to say this... i think this payment the main reason for the discrimination. i know that it's wrong in so many ways, but it comes down to money - plain and simple.

it's incredibly wrong to me... but from a business perspective i can see why employers don't want to find themselves in that situation. i don't like it one bit - as a woman it really angers me that we can get discriminated against for this sort of thing.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by redambition
it's incredibly wrong to me... but from a business perspective i can see why employers don't want to find themselves in that situation. i don't like it one bit - as a woman it really angers me that we can get discriminated against for this sort of thing.

You know that Australia and the USA are the only two countries in the world that don't offer statutory paid maternity leave?
Parental leave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It can't just be about money. These are two of the richest nations on the planet - the US probably the richest.
 

redambition

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratmist
You know that Australia and the USA are the only two countries in the world that don't offer statutory paid maternity leave?
Parental leave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It can't just be about money. These are two of the richest nations on the planet - the US probably the richest.


i know that - it's brought up all the time by women's groups here
smiles.gif


interesting that the wiki table shows women can have up to 2 years unpaid here - it's actually 1 year. in the USA it's 6 weeks - that's crazy!

there's some interesting info on the australian side of things here. the survey notes that the majority of people here are in favour of paid maternity leave.

i can't help but wonder what will happen if paid maternity leave becomes a requirement for employers here. part of me worries that discrimination against women might rear it's head. would it be a win for the women if those same women then can't get the job they want because employers don't want to risk employing them just in case they have a child?
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by redambition
i know that - it's brought up all the time by women's groups here
smiles.gif


interesting that the wiki table shows women can have up to 2 years unpaid here - it's actually 1 year. in the USA it's 6 weeks - that's crazy!


Wikipedia got it wrong? No way!
cutey.gif
This is why I made a rule to all my students to never use Wikipedia as a source material. I knew I couldn't stop them from using it as a basic place to start looking, but I was damned if I'd let them use it as source material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redambition
i can't help but wonder what will happen if paid maternity leave becomes a requirement for employers here. part of me worries that discrimination against women might rear it's head. would it be a win for the women if those same women then can't get the job they want because employers don't want to risk employing them just in case they have a child?

For major companies, paid maternity leave isn't really going to be much of a problem; they're just being greedy, imo. It's small businesses that have a hard time meeting something like this. In that instance, I think there should be government incentive to offer paid maternity leave.

It's been shown in a number of studies (that I don't have to hand but can forward them to you) that when companies offer good paid parental leave, it makes for more loyal employees, stronger companies and usually stronger communities. When companies work with their employees to make sure they have every opportunity to juggle family life with their jobs, industries tend to thrive. It isn't easy to shift over though from a male-worker-dominated point of view to something that allows men and women to juggle family life together.
 

redambition

Well-known member
lol.gif
i can't believe wiki got it wrong! *gasp*

i'm not too sure how even major companies would go with paid maternity leave. it'd definitely be manageable with only a couple of people away - but if you get larger numbers it'd start to become a big dip in the finances... especially if you're talking women in highly-paid roles. you have to keep paying the employee who is off, along with a replacement - that's effectively doubling the cost of that one role (if the replacement is a contractor then they are usually paid a higher rate for that very reason, so that can negate a smaller pay packet for the woman on mat leave).

drawing on personal experience - i work at a company that is fairly large, and there always seems to be quite a few women away on maternity leave, with several who are expecting and will be going on mat leave at some point soon. i also work in an industry where profit margins are continually being degraded and it keeps getting harder to make the same amount of cash: more product has to be turned over at lower profit margin, making it busier and more stressful. in this sort of industry it's often operating costs that make or break the net profit of the company. paid mat leave could really affect this - and at the end of the day shareholders want a profit and return on investment, so the company has to perform well. it's all a numbers game.

i totally agree with you in the sense that good working conditions, ability for flexibility around family needs and paid parental leave make for loyal employees and thriving industry. i'm also concerned that industries that are starting to get more women in them might be pushed back to male domination because companies don't want to pay up any potential mat leave.

i guess i want the best of both worlds. paid mat leave should i ever need it, and also a work environment free from discrimination against women my age
smiles.gif
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by redambition
lol.gif
i can't believe wiki got it wrong! *gasp*
i'm not too sure how even major companies would go with paid maternity leave. it'd definitely be manageable with only a couple of people away - but if you get larger numbers it'd start to become a big dip in the finances... especially if you're talking women in highly-paid roles you have to keep paying the employee who is off, along with a replacement - that's effectively doubling the cost of that one role (if the replacement is a contractor then they are usually paid a higher rate for that very reason, so that can negate a smaller pay packet for the woman on mat leave).


Assuming you actually have those women, for one. Also, in the UK, the business pays the maternity leave pay initially and then reclaims it from the government. The bigger issue for most employers is paying someone (a temp whom you're not going to fully train for example) to cover the maternity leave, combined with lower return rates. But they're still not paying anything close to double, as you say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redambition
drawing on personal experience - i work at a company that is fairly large, and there always seems to be quite a few women away on maternity leave, with several who are expecting and will be going on mat leave at some point soon. i also work in an industry where profit margins are continually being degraded and it keeps getting harder to make the same amount of cash: more product has to be turned over at lower profit margin, making it busier and more stressful. in this sort of industry it's often operating costs that make or break the net profit of the company. paid mat leave could really affect this - and at the end of the day shareholders want a profit and return on investment, so the company has to perform well. it's all a numbers game.

Not quite - see above. There's ways of getting maternity leave paid so that negative impacts can be absorbed by the companies, but it usually involves government intervention. Some people are really, really against that.
 
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