Makeup and the veil: same difference?
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GreekChick
Well-known member
It's ridiculous.
Did they seriously have nothing better to write about? I think most of us on this board are aware that attracting men and choosing to wear Humid and Sushiflower are 2 very different things. It doesn't surprise me how most of the opinions are from men's perspective, who have absolutely no idea how we live our lives. I'm not wearing Russian Red as a veil to hide my lips so that I can make you hot, I'm wearing it because I felt like dressing up like a 1940's screen siren.
Did they seriously have nothing better to write about? I think most of us on this board are aware that attracting men and choosing to wear Humid and Sushiflower are 2 very different things. It doesn't surprise me how most of the opinions are from men's perspective, who have absolutely no idea how we live our lives. I'm not wearing Russian Red as a veil to hide my lips so that I can make you hot, I'm wearing it because I felt like dressing up like a 1940's screen siren.
faifai
Well-known member
Can you should make the link with descriptive text so it doesn't stretch the thread all funny? It made it slower to load for me the way it is. You just do [*URL="your html address here"]*[*b]Makeup and the Veil[*/b][*/URL], only without the stars. It'll show up like Makeup and the Veil.
As for the actual article, I was mostly like "uhh...wtf?" Depending on your view of each, both "the veil" (which they really ought to use the proper terms for - hijab, niqab, burqa, jilbab are all different things and not all of them involve a veil!) and wearing makeup can be empowering or the complete opposite. As always, it is a question of why you're wearing it and for who.
Muslim women who cover for themselves (and not because some radical extremist government is forcing them to do so) usually do see it an empowering action. It's like leveling the playing field, forcing others to see you as not just T&A but the total package.
Women who wear makeup for themselves probably don't get up in the morning and think "when I put on this lipstick, I am succumbing to society's pressure for me to look impossibly perfect 24/7."
However, if you're doing it because society is making you, or at the very least making you feel like you can't be taken seriously or be looked at as a "good" person if you don't, that's when both makeup and wearing the "veil" cease to be empowering. When you're at a disadvantage because you won't do what is the norm and you go without covering your hair or wearing lipgloss, that's when it becomes a problem.
And if you're looking at it from a very feminist standpoint, you could argue that people who do either are brainwashed. In both cases, women change how they really look so that somebody other than themselves (men, basically) can benefit from it.
As for the actual article, I was mostly like "uhh...wtf?" Depending on your view of each, both "the veil" (which they really ought to use the proper terms for - hijab, niqab, burqa, jilbab are all different things and not all of them involve a veil!) and wearing makeup can be empowering or the complete opposite. As always, it is a question of why you're wearing it and for who.
Muslim women who cover for themselves (and not because some radical extremist government is forcing them to do so) usually do see it an empowering action. It's like leveling the playing field, forcing others to see you as not just T&A but the total package.
Women who wear makeup for themselves probably don't get up in the morning and think "when I put on this lipstick, I am succumbing to society's pressure for me to look impossibly perfect 24/7."
However, if you're doing it because society is making you, or at the very least making you feel like you can't be taken seriously or be looked at as a "good" person if you don't, that's when both makeup and wearing the "veil" cease to be empowering. When you're at a disadvantage because you won't do what is the norm and you go without covering your hair or wearing lipgloss, that's when it becomes a problem.
And if you're looking at it from a very feminist standpoint, you could argue that people who do either are brainwashed. In both cases, women change how they really look so that somebody other than themselves (men, basically) can benefit from it.
Raerae
Well-known member
Gotta love the male perspective...
Quote:
Since when did caring about your appearance become insecurity? Personally I can't stand men who walk around all day looking like slobs. Walking around with bed head and wearing the shrirt they picked up off of the floor of their room that was the least wrinkled. Men an women both care about their appearance, men can lie all they want about how they "look" isn't important. But lets be real, no one finds a slob attractive. Just because they dont wear MU, doesn't mean they dont do plenty of other forms of grooming. From trimming their beards, and putting gel in their hair and making sure their hair is parted in the exact spot it was the day before, and the day before that. There are obviously plenty of "insecure men" who won't leave the house before doing those things...
Not to mention, I know many women who dont wear any MU at all. And go bare faced all the time. I think a lot of the perception about MU comes from the difference it does make on your appearance. The women at work who go bare faced all the time, on the rare occasion they do wear MU, they do look nicer. But thats not to say that on the days that they don't, they don't look nice. And for myself, I'm so used to seeing myself with MU on, that when I don't wear it, I feel like I look different. Which is why I typically put MU on before I go out. Although recently I've been leaving my house bare faced and doing my MU at work. I don't think that's insecurity, as much as keeping up your appearance. But this explains why if you regularly wear MU, and don't, people notice (the whole look tired or whatever). Just like if you dont wear MU often, and then DO, people notice.
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It only taked 17 seconds if he's just making his hair look messy. I know for a fact that my dad NEVER leaves the house w/out spending like 20+ minutes on his hair. From gelling it, parting it, and blowdrying it. not to mention all the time he takes shaving and trimming his beard every morning. In addition to ironing his pants, shirt, and tie. This guy seems to imply that all men just wake up and walk out the door.
And I'm quite positive if a man came into work looking like he had just rolled out of bed every morning, unshaven, messy beard, messy hair, and his job involved putting on a public face, that he would be asked to clean himself up. Men have dresscodes too, just because they dont involve MU, doesn't mean they spend any less time.
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I'm sure the average man takes that much time to get ready as well. I can spend 30 minutes in the shower LOL. It's not really a fair comparison, short hair and only having to shave their face gives men an advantage when it comes too "taking less time to get ready." When your hair is 1/2 way down your back, compared to an inch long, it takes longer to wash/condition/dry/style. Not to mention shaving my legs, underarms, and naughty bitz is always going to take longer than it takes a guy to shave his beard. So even if I dont wear any MU at all, it's going to take me longer to get ready, I have more things to do, and the things we have in common, will always take longer.
Quote:
| We've all heard stories about (or dated) the insecure woman who couldn't go down the shops without first applying her lipstick and foundation, but what does it say about the world we live in that even female teens with flawless skin feel they're not complete without their Bonne Bell? |
Since when did caring about your appearance become insecurity? Personally I can't stand men who walk around all day looking like slobs. Walking around with bed head and wearing the shrirt they picked up off of the floor of their room that was the least wrinkled. Men an women both care about their appearance, men can lie all they want about how they "look" isn't important. But lets be real, no one finds a slob attractive. Just because they dont wear MU, doesn't mean they dont do plenty of other forms of grooming. From trimming their beards, and putting gel in their hair and making sure their hair is parted in the exact spot it was the day before, and the day before that. There are obviously plenty of "insecure men" who won't leave the house before doing those things...
Not to mention, I know many women who dont wear any MU at all. And go bare faced all the time. I think a lot of the perception about MU comes from the difference it does make on your appearance. The women at work who go bare faced all the time, on the rare occasion they do wear MU, they do look nicer. But thats not to say that on the days that they don't, they don't look nice. And for myself, I'm so used to seeing myself with MU on, that when I don't wear it, I feel like I look different. Which is why I typically put MU on before I go out. Although recently I've been leaving my house bare faced and doing my MU at work. I don't think that's insecurity, as much as keeping up your appearance. But this explains why if you regularly wear MU, and don't, people notice (the whole look tired or whatever). Just like if you dont wear MU often, and then DO, people notice.
Quote:
| Other women argue that makup is the same as men putting gel in their hair, the difference being that that process takes a guy about 17 seconds, he'd never lose his job if he didn't do it (hello to all the flight attendants out there), and it doesn't threaten his health. |
It only taked 17 seconds if he's just making his hair look messy. I know for a fact that my dad NEVER leaves the house w/out spending like 20+ minutes on his hair. From gelling it, parting it, and blowdrying it. not to mention all the time he takes shaving and trimming his beard every morning. In addition to ironing his pants, shirt, and tie. This guy seems to imply that all men just wake up and walk out the door.
And I'm quite positive if a man came into work looking like he had just rolled out of bed every morning, unshaven, messy beard, messy hair, and his job involved putting on a public face, that he would be asked to clean himself up. Men have dresscodes too, just because they dont involve MU, doesn't mean they spend any less time.
Quote:
| Another survey of 2000 women by retailer Marks & Spencer in the UK found "the average woman takes the equivalent of 10 working days a year getting ready for work at 27 minutes per day, and 10 per cent take more than an hour per day." "The majority of women spend 21 minutes getting ready for a shopping trip, 54 minutes for a night out with the girls and 59 minutes for a 'romantic evening'." |
I'm sure the average man takes that much time to get ready as well. I can spend 30 minutes in the shower LOL. It's not really a fair comparison, short hair and only having to shave their face gives men an advantage when it comes too "taking less time to get ready." When your hair is 1/2 way down your back, compared to an inch long, it takes longer to wash/condition/dry/style. Not to mention shaving my legs, underarms, and naughty bitz is always going to take longer than it takes a guy to shave his beard. So even if I dont wear any MU at all, it's going to take me longer to get ready, I have more things to do, and the things we have in common, will always take longer.
BunnyBunnyBunny
Well-known member
Does he forget that men DO wear makeup in movies and television to enhance their looks? Not as noticable as some women, but men do.
And I'm a guy that wears makeup, I find it fun to look different everyday and than other people, and get noticed. It's fun and I think its empowering to not be just a person in the crowd. I am hiding my true looks, but I prefer looking fabulously glamorous than plain average.
And I'm a guy that wears makeup, I find it fun to look different everyday and than other people, and get noticed. It's fun and I think its empowering to not be just a person in the crowd. I am hiding my true looks, but I prefer looking fabulously glamorous than plain average.
Katura
Well-known member
I don't really know what to say...I had the 'why do you wear all that makeup' talk yesterday with my boyfriend. All I could tell him was that I did it because I liked it, I like looking a bit different than my bare faced self. There's nothing wrong with me underneath, I think without it I would still look nice. I just like the creativity, how it can brighten me up, and I can play up my favorite features. After I explained that is wasn't about me hinding and covering up something I think he understood.
I don't understand why it always seems to lead back to insecurity. What happened to one's own choice? And what's wrong with caring about your appearance? I'd rather not look tired and grey after a long night. I'd rather dab on some concealer, put on some blush, and look fresh.
haha...and I know it takes me a bit of time to get ready each day, but if a man is only spending 17 seconds on himself...he must be badly shaven, have either horrible breakouts or excessivly dry skin, and messy hair. I know it said applying hair gel...but honestly, I know my boyfriend takes more time than that, so did my ex before that (he probably took as long as I did actually), my dad (he's actually taken to plucking stray crazy brow hairs that come around when your of his age), and most of my male friends.
I mean come on. I think it's unfair to automatically associate makeup with insecurity and only doing to to attract attention.
lame. agreed.
I don't understand why it always seems to lead back to insecurity. What happened to one's own choice? And what's wrong with caring about your appearance? I'd rather not look tired and grey after a long night. I'd rather dab on some concealer, put on some blush, and look fresh.
haha...and I know it takes me a bit of time to get ready each day, but if a man is only spending 17 seconds on himself...he must be badly shaven, have either horrible breakouts or excessivly dry skin, and messy hair. I know it said applying hair gel...but honestly, I know my boyfriend takes more time than that, so did my ex before that (he probably took as long as I did actually), my dad (he's actually taken to plucking stray crazy brow hairs that come around when your of his age), and most of my male friends.
I mean come on. I think it's unfair to automatically associate makeup with insecurity and only doing to to attract attention.
lame. agreed.
Beauty Mark
Well-known member
Some people wear makeup for the "wrong" reasons. Some people don't wear makeup for the "wrong" reasons. And some people just like wearing makeup or not wearing makeup and are perfectly valid.
It's just cosmetics. Unless it contains lead, it's really harmless stuff. You can't make blanket statements about most things, because I find there's a good number of people who are the exception to those statements.
The thing that kills me is some of those people touting a natural look are probably unaware that some of the natural beauties they admire are wearing a light foundation, neutral lipstick/gloss, mascara, something. I was always surprised when I was younger when friends I knew who looked 100% barefaced revealed that they wear a light foundation, subtle liner, and mascara.
It's just cosmetics. Unless it contains lead, it's really harmless stuff. You can't make blanket statements about most things, because I find there's a good number of people who are the exception to those statements.
The thing that kills me is some of those people touting a natural look are probably unaware that some of the natural beauties they admire are wearing a light foundation, neutral lipstick/gloss, mascara, something. I was always surprised when I was younger when friends I knew who looked 100% barefaced revealed that they wear a light foundation, subtle liner, and mascara.
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
Yeh I always thought this was funny. You hear guys talking all the time about how they prefer girls who dont wear MU. Yet all the girls they "prefer" do exactly what your saying above. Which really isn't less any less MU then doing colors, your just useing neutrals instead.
I think that stems from their own insecurity more than anything else. In that they don't feel comfortable dating someone who takes a lot of pride in their appearance, clothing, etc. Like they won't measure up to your expectations or something. At least thats my expierence on it. I started noticing it a lot when I was IMing people over long periods of time. And how guys who were very "secure" in their attitude/appearance, got insecure once it came time to swap pictures, especially if I gave my photo first. Or saying things like how I would hate them if I ever met them in person, since they seem to think that because I <3 MU, and Clothing, that I expect the guys I date to be all into being well dressed and groomed etc.
Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
The thing that kills me is some of those people touting a natural look are probably unaware that some of the natural beauties they admire are wearing a light foundation, neutral lipstick/gloss, mascara, something. I was always surprised when I was younger when friends I knew who looked 100% barefaced revealed that they wear a light foundation, subtle liner, and mascara. |
Yeh I always thought this was funny. You hear guys talking all the time about how they prefer girls who dont wear MU. Yet all the girls they "prefer" do exactly what your saying above. Which really isn't less any less MU then doing colors, your just useing neutrals instead.
I think that stems from their own insecurity more than anything else. In that they don't feel comfortable dating someone who takes a lot of pride in their appearance, clothing, etc. Like they won't measure up to your expectations or something. At least thats my expierence on it. I started noticing it a lot when I was IMing people over long periods of time. And how guys who were very "secure" in their attitude/appearance, got insecure once it came time to swap pictures, especially if I gave my photo first. Or saying things like how I would hate them if I ever met them in person, since they seem to think that because I <3 MU, and Clothing, that I expect the guys I date to be all into being well dressed and groomed etc.
Dark_Phoenix
Well-known member
I think it's also unfair to associate mu with insecurity and only doing it to attract attention. I like how it looks, and I like how I feel while wearing it.
To elaborate further on what faifai said about make-up and the veil, kohl does help reduce the sun's glare in your eyes... so the mu sometimes has a practical purpose (although I hate natural kohl since I always screw up the application
).
Found this blog entry on Lonely Planet about a Brittish woman travelling as a tourist and her impression of the hijab (niqab is what she wore) in Saudi Arabia, I thought it contrasts posted article well:
'A woman's beauty is her hair', goes the Arab saying. And walking around without a headscarf certainly seemed to attract attention. Though you don't have to wear a head covering by law in Saudi Arabia, doing so avoids chastisement from the mutawwa (the infamous 'religious police', a kind of self-appointed moral vigilante), as well as earning the respect of the ordinary citizen.
In the more conservative regions of the Kingdom (the centre, the far north, the northwest and far south) many would apparently prefer more:
'May God lead him to a straight path', were the mutters Abdullah and I heard as we walked down a street in Najran in the far south of Saudi. As we were alone, people assumed we were married. It had its advantages: like donning a disguise, we could move about undisturbed doing what other couples did, such as browsing the local markets, or sharing a rug while picnicking on the seafront. But it also made Abdullah even more responsible for me than he already was. As my 'husband', it was his shame to show me.
For Abdullah's sake therefore more than for my own, I decided sometimes to adopt the full attire. To my surprise, I rather liked it. From within the veil I could see without being seen, understand without being understood, and ogle the magnificent tribesmen of Najran without suffering inspection myself.
It shielded from the sun and deterred the dust; it hid blemishes and bags brought on by a late night's writing or a 15-hour journey. It concealed uncombed hair, a crumpled shirt or clumsy cosmetics. When I later returned to London, the pressure to appear fashionable, feminine and au fait again seemed almost overwhelming. To my surprise, I secretly coveted those days in my coverings.
Don't think the Saudis themselves miss out too much either. Underneath that austere attire, many Saudi women don the finest fabrics or Milan's most fashionable fittings. Saudi women are also among the highest spenders on luxury lingerie.
Saudi men manage too:
'From the fold in a woman's ankle, you know her age,' Abdullah one day explained gleefully and sheepishly at the same time. 'From the size of her wrist, you know her build. From the abeyya in motion, her figure; and from her hands, her complexion. And from the eyes, you have everything else...'
To elaborate further on what faifai said about make-up and the veil, kohl does help reduce the sun's glare in your eyes... so the mu sometimes has a practical purpose (although I hate natural kohl since I always screw up the application
).Found this blog entry on Lonely Planet about a Brittish woman travelling as a tourist and her impression of the hijab (niqab is what she wore) in Saudi Arabia, I thought it contrasts posted article well:
'A woman's beauty is her hair', goes the Arab saying. And walking around without a headscarf certainly seemed to attract attention. Though you don't have to wear a head covering by law in Saudi Arabia, doing so avoids chastisement from the mutawwa (the infamous 'religious police', a kind of self-appointed moral vigilante), as well as earning the respect of the ordinary citizen.
In the more conservative regions of the Kingdom (the centre, the far north, the northwest and far south) many would apparently prefer more:
'May God lead him to a straight path', were the mutters Abdullah and I heard as we walked down a street in Najran in the far south of Saudi. As we were alone, people assumed we were married. It had its advantages: like donning a disguise, we could move about undisturbed doing what other couples did, such as browsing the local markets, or sharing a rug while picnicking on the seafront. But it also made Abdullah even more responsible for me than he already was. As my 'husband', it was his shame to show me.
For Abdullah's sake therefore more than for my own, I decided sometimes to adopt the full attire. To my surprise, I rather liked it. From within the veil I could see without being seen, understand without being understood, and ogle the magnificent tribesmen of Najran without suffering inspection myself.
It shielded from the sun and deterred the dust; it hid blemishes and bags brought on by a late night's writing or a 15-hour journey. It concealed uncombed hair, a crumpled shirt or clumsy cosmetics. When I later returned to London, the pressure to appear fashionable, feminine and au fait again seemed almost overwhelming. To my surprise, I secretly coveted those days in my coverings.
Don't think the Saudis themselves miss out too much either. Underneath that austere attire, many Saudi women don the finest fabrics or Milan's most fashionable fittings. Saudi women are also among the highest spenders on luxury lingerie.
Saudi men manage too:
'From the fold in a woman's ankle, you know her age,' Abdullah one day explained gleefully and sheepishly at the same time. 'From the size of her wrist, you know her build. From the abeyya in motion, her figure; and from her hands, her complexion. And from the eyes, you have everything else...'
iLust
Well-known member
Quote:
AGREED!
| Originally Posted by Katura
I like looking a bit different than my bare faced self. There's nothing wrong with me underneath, I think without it I would still look nice. I just like the creativity, how it can brighten me up, and I can play up my favorite features. I'd rather not look tired and grey after a long night. I'd rather dab on some concealer, put on some blush, and look fresh. |
AGREED!
faifai
Well-known member
Quote:
Exactly! I think it is so funny that guys basically have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to what they like regarding makeup. I know very few guys who find a completely barefaced girl OR a heavily made up girl "very attractive."
Usually it's a girl using a bit of makeup to enhance, not so little that she looks plain, but not so much that she looks like a totally different person without it. Some tinted moisturizer, tinted chapstick, liner, curling the lashes and mascara makes a world of difference and they think you're not wearing any makeup at all, but that is so not the case. In general, less is more when it comes to makeup, but in reality none at all or too much are also not the ideal.
| Originally Posted by Raerae
Yeh I always thought this was funny. You hear guys talking all the time about how they prefer girls who dont wear MU. Yet all the girls they "prefer" do exactly what your saying above. Which really isn't less any less MU then doing colors, your just useing neutrals instead. |
Exactly! I think it is so funny that guys basically have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to what they like regarding makeup. I know very few guys who find a completely barefaced girl OR a heavily made up girl "very attractive."
Usually it's a girl using a bit of makeup to enhance, not so little that she looks plain, but not so much that she looks like a totally different person without it. Some tinted moisturizer, tinted chapstick, liner, curling the lashes and mascara makes a world of difference and they think you're not wearing any makeup at all, but that is so not the case. In general, less is more when it comes to makeup, but in reality none at all or too much are also not the ideal.
Beauty Mark
Well-known member
Quote:
I think people buy into the stereotype TV shows have often given us. If you care about clothes and makeup, you're obviously a snotty airhead who's as dumb as rocks. Even those cutesy shows, like Saved By the Bell, would use that portrayal.
I happen to think the people who are vehemently against makeup nowadays are shallow, just in a different way.
| Originally Posted by Raerae
Yeh I always thought this was funny. You hear guys talking all the time about how they prefer girls who dont wear MU. Yet all the girls they "prefer" do exactly what your saying above. Which really isn't less any less MU then doing colors, your just useing neutrals instead. I think that stems from their own insecurity more than anything else. In that they don't feel comfortable dating someone who takes a lot of pride in their appearance, clothing, etc. Like they won't measure up to your expectations or something. At least thats my expierence on it. I started noticing it a lot when I was IMing people over long periods of time. And how guys who were very "secure" in their attitude/appearance, got insecure once it came time to swap pictures, especially if I gave my photo first. Or saying things like how I would hate them if I ever met them in person, since they seem to think that because I <3 MU, and Clothing, that I expect the guys I date to be all into being well dressed and groomed etc. |
I think people buy into the stereotype TV shows have often given us. If you care about clothes and makeup, you're obviously a snotty airhead who's as dumb as rocks. Even those cutesy shows, like Saved By the Bell, would use that portrayal.
I happen to think the people who are vehemently against makeup nowadays are shallow, just in a different way.
flowerhead
Well-known member
I cant really see the similarities between hiding your face with a veil and drawing attention to it with makeup...
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
The idea is that both cover your real face. Thus drawing the parallel that MU is like the Veil of the west, and that women are "forced" by society to wear it, if they are to live up to societies expectations.
Also also implying that even in the West, only Men have the freedom to show their faces to society uncovered.
It's a stretch, but you can argue the point.
| Originally Posted by flowerhead
I cant really see the similarities between hiding your face with a veil and drawing attention to it with makeup... |
The idea is that both cover your real face. Thus drawing the parallel that MU is like the Veil of the west, and that women are "forced" by society to wear it, if they are to live up to societies expectations.
Also also implying that even in the West, only Men have the freedom to show their faces to society uncovered.
It's a stretch, but you can argue the point.
