Should Israel be a state?

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stacey

Well-known member
(I'll just post an article that I think is very interesting.)

Torah Jews Denounce Israeli State

The following is the written text of a speech delivered by Rabbi Yisroel P. Feldman of Neturei Karta International at the Manhattan rally of the Metropolitan Muslim Coalition on April 12, 2002

With God’s help may the words that we speak here today sanctify God’s name and may it bring peace and brotherhood amongst His creations.

A – salaam aleikum

There are some people who may ask, why a Jew is speaking at this Palestinian demonstration?


But in truth, the question should be totally different. The question should be, how is it that the Jewish people, which have been known as a compassionate, God fearing, peaceful peope and have lived side by side for over a thousand years, in peace and brotherhood with their Arab and Muslim cousins, how is it possible that this Jewish nation, can be one and the same as this Zionist state, this Israeli state and its arrogant militia, with their flag unfurled with a Star of David at its center?

This question, thank God, I am humbly able to answer.

The answer is, my friends, that your question is really the answer.

What you are seeing today, as representative of Judaism is truly the antithesis of Judaism.

Not only is Zionism not one and the same with Judaism, but on the contrary, Zionism is the true nemesis of Judaism. The transformation of Godliness into a work of Satan.

Tragically some people in the Holy Land and elsewhere, as part of a mistaken reaction to the Holocaust, have seen the Zionist entity as their savior and somehow representative of world Jewry.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Judaism, true Judaism, totally rejects, in fact, it abhors the philosophy of Zionism.

Zionism is a philosophy originated by non believers, by Jews long since estranged from their faith.

It is a philosophy that denies God and His constant supervision and does not accept His Torah as their law.

It is a philosophy based upon the systematic dispossession and oppression of the Palestinian people.

As such it is the antithesis of Judaism.

My brothers, pay careful note, around the world from Durban, South Africa to London, from New York to Jerusalem, Orthodox Jews have demonstrated in the streets against the Israeli state and the horrors of Zionist actions.

In New York City, in Manhattan, a few weeks back, over twenty thousand anti Zionist Jews marched against – not simply the occupation of Gaza and the West bank – rather against the very notion of the Israeli state itself.

This march was completely ignored by the mainstream media.

Do you know that just this week at a religious anti-Zionist march in Jerusalem, God fearing orthodox Jews were beaten mercilessly and some were thrown into prisons, where they are still today. Have you seen one word of this in any of the media outlets?

Members of the press here today – please, do not be intimidated. Tell the world the truth. Tell them that Zionism was opposed by almost all believing Jews from its inception. And till today the opposition stands strong.

We posit that metaphysically there can never be real peace in the Middle East as long as the state of Israel exists, because its very existence and all its consequential actions is a rebellion against God.

We proclaim that the tremendous upsurge of anti-Semitism throughout the world is a direct result of Zionism, and that is exactly what the Zionists want, so that the Jewish people will feel forced to run to them for their supposed protection. We point a finger at Zionism and its state as the core reason for the colossal tragedy that has been perpetrated in the holy land, against Arab and Jew alike, from the inception of Zionism until today.

We want to stress our paid and embarrassment in regard to the last tragedies and deaths which have accured in Jenin, Nablus , Bais Lechem, the list goes on and on.

But you should know that Zionism is a greater tragedy for Jews than for the Palestinians.

From the Palestinians, Zionism and its state, took their land and their bodies, but from the Jews the Zionists and its state took their souls, their belief in God and in fact they have transformed the hole concept of Judaism.

Our task as Jews in the world is a very basic one. It is to serve the Creator as we have been commanded and to seek peace and promote respect towards all men.

We yearn for the day when world Jewry having abandoned Zionism will live in peace and harmony with their Arab and Muslim cousins throughout the world.

As we all know everybody would want that the rights and freedom of the Palestinians, be achieved without any loss of life, as this is the normal human beings wish. And so we pray that this objective should be achieved speedily and immediately without any more pain and suffering, be it Palestinian or be it Jewish. This is the prayer of all decent man.

May we live to see the day, speedily in the very near future, when the One God will be recognized through out His universe and all will serve Him together in peace and joy. AMAN

A – salaam aleikum

taken from: http://www.nkusa.org/activities/speeches/nyc041202.cfm
 

Raerae

Well-known member
I think that it's a been there done that situation. And since I was not alive at the time the state was created post WW2, I think it's too late to make comments on who should and who should not be given a state. It's already been given, you can't and wont ever be able to take it away, so it's pointless really to discuss the merits of if the Jewish people loving there deserve a state or not. As to take it away from them would involve the wholesale genocide of the population living there.

More importantly, I think that the majority of the nutjobs incharge of the governments worldwide (USA included) need to get over themselves. The simple fact is, most people dont really care one way or the other what happens in politics outside of their immediate area. They are more conscerned if they are going to have food and water and a roof over their heads. It's fairly obvious.

Look at any place in the world that if you believed the propaganda of the government would lead you to believe that they hate the United States. Yet when disasters strike, you dont see the people who live in those countries rejecting American humanitarian supplies.

Bottom line I think most people care more about a basic stability in their daily lives. Do I have a home, food, a job, whatever. It's only the people who are victimized by the actions of the idiots incharge world wide, that you end up with problems. Because you have taken away the above. But given a choice, even then, i bet most people would rather gets back to their regular lives asap, than have to worry about who can be a state and who can't be a state.
 

*Stargazer*

Well-known member
I think, unfortunately, you can't undo what has already been made into a state but if we could go back in time, we'd be better served by giving the Jews a refuge here in the US instead of where it is now.
 

Shimmer

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Can't undo it, and the Jews back then wouldn't have accepted refuge in exchange for having their own state, I'd bet.
 

Raerae

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This is what happens when human breeding gets out of control. Not enough space, and everyone thinks they deserve a bigger chunk than they have right now.
 

Hawkeye

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Whats been done is done. Theres nothing you can do about it. But what is to come can have something done about it.

I think that to be perfectly point blank, Neither group will EVER EVER EVER get along. Period. It's just one of those things thats craziness.

I wish they could though.
 

stacey

Well-known member
I'm not talking about "the past" and "what is done is done" but in general. Do you think Israel should even be a state?
 

stacey

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
Can I choose the, "I dont care option?"

Sure you could, and if you did there was no point to posting.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by stacey
I'm not talking about "the past" and "what is done is done" but in general. Do you think Israel should even be a state?

Yes.
smiles.gif
 

Hawkeye

Well-known member
Yes it should. BUT I also think Palistine should also be a state.
I think at some point they will have to start sharing whether they like it or not.
 

amoona

Well-known member
No, they do not have a right to exist. Judiasim, the religion they use as their excuse for existance, rejects the notion of a Jewish state of Israel before the coming of the Messiah. Historically it's not their land, and politically and in a human right's sense ... it's all a bunch of crap. I'm a third generation Palestinian refugee displaced because of "Israel" and I know I'm super late to this post so I wont go deep into all the reasons the state of "Israel" is a state of mind rather than a state of legitimacy. If anyone wants to know the religious facts, historical facts, and political facts then feel free to let me know and I can get into detail.

But to answer the question once again ... HELL NO!
 

quandolak

Well-known member
I dont think either people will never ever get along. I dont belive either sides curent goverments will ever get along though.

I mean im only a quarter palestinian and muslim and my best friend from school was jewish isreali and we still get on like a house on fire. I have lots of jewish friends. Its not a problem with jewishh/ muslim when you get down to it. Its land.

And i belive that the mass immigration of (mainly)jewish people from around the world to israel should stop as there is already too much pressure on land space. I mean not jist jewish people ...i mean everyone. Its too much of a sensitive issue for their to be immiogration on such a scale to a war torn region.


Now regardless of religion here you have to look at how much land has been taken from the palestinians and how they have been forced into the most cramped cities i the whole world. Even when there was ceasfire there land was getting taken away. Personally i dont belive israel should take up such a lage space of land that has been so violently taken of their fellow abrahmaic borthers. Land shoudl be given back and a halt made on immigration that isnt humanitarian to israel. I dont have anything against jewish people but in my mind israel shouldnt exist as it was founded with violence towards its neighbours who with jewish once live hand in hand.. Of course there are now a hel off alot of people living there and there is no way of booting them out but there has to be a stop to this insane migration.


OK apart from that in my perfect world...which wont happen...but still....

There would be 98% of israel and palestine given over to those who wanted to live in peace in the abrahamic tradition of sharing religion. And it would be made up of israelis and paelstinians who could get on with their lives. Im sure loads of people would want this option. So many civillians are caught in this stupid political and land grabbing free for all.

The other 2% could be stuck in the most rubbish part of the region and could battle it out...of course rubbish people breed damn it...


ahh just a dream...
 

amoona

Well-known member
quandolak ... it has nothing to do with palestinian/arab/muslim vs. jewish ... orthodox jews who have studied their religion and hold strong beliefs in their religion are aware that the concept of a jewish homeland before the coming of the messiah is against their religion. it's a palestinian vs. zionist issue.

secondly, jewish is a RELIGION it is not a nationality. there are palestinian jews as well as other arab jews. however those arab jews are not treated the same in israel as the european jews are treated. there is a superiority of european jews over native palestinian jews, other arab jews, latin jews, black jews, etc.

as for the immigration, jews from any part of the world are welcomed to israel and given instant citizenship. on the other hand someone like me, 100% palestinian, can not live there for more then three months at a time. every three months, if i'm even given a three month visa, i would have to leave the country to renew my visa and that's not 100% for sure that i'll get the visa.

the gaza strip is the most condestly population land in the world. most of the land obtained by israel in 1948 & 1967 are unused by israel. the land they stole from my grandparents, their village was burnt to the ground and is now abandonded land. although the u.n. resolutions have given me legal right to return to that land israel doesn't allow it and the world sits quietly.

yet we're the extremists? lol funny to me.
 

amoona

Well-known member
o and to add to your second comment, my grandmother's neighbor as a child was a palestinian jew who they had no problems before 1948. once "israel" was created their neighbors became israeli. hence the fact that it is a palestinian vs. zionist thing, not all jews support israel. i recommed people to check out nkusa.org to understand why jews are opposed to the establishment of israel.
 

Cool Kitten

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoona
secondly, jewish is a RELIGION it is not a nationality.

i'm not going to bother discussing your post since you "voted for Hamas" and it's pretty clear who you are and what you believe in, but Judaism is absolutely in a nationality, and an identity as well as religion. To claim otherwise is ignorant.
 

amoona

Well-known member
Jewish is a nationality?! Since when?! Damn so is Muslim a nationality too? Is Christian a nationality too? lol I'm ignorant? Sweetie let me just inform you that anyone can be a Jew. There are Arab Jews, Black Jews, British Jews, American Jews, Italian Jews, Mexican Jews, etc. Jewish is a RELIGION.

To claim that Jewish is a nationality is JUST IGNORANT. And don't give me that "it's pretty clear who you are" bullcrap. Yes I support Hamas because I am educated and informed enough to know what they are, who they are, and how they help the Palestinian people. Don't think you can attempt to put me down and insult me, I'm far too informed and involved to have you tell me what you believe is right when it's wrong.
 
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