Sooooo... What's worse?

[Raerae]

Father found guilty in honor killing

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/...onor_killing_1

OR

Fundamental Mormons seek recognition for polygamy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070612/...ns_polygamy_dc

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I think the saddest thing is how women are always the ones who have to burden these abuses. Death is bad, but then again, a life like that might be just as bad. Whats worse, is that in both cases, the women dont have a choice, be it through ignorance, or fear, or both.

 

[jdepp_84]

Both are obviously bad, but thats in our eyes. We must keep in mind that we are judging these acts based on our norms, values and beliefs. In our society, this is not the correct behavior, and I strongly disagree with them. But we can't judge them or convince them that its wrong because its their culture and thats how they have been tought to behave. Im sure they see our society and think that we must be killed for certain things we do that we think are okay to do.

And I agree, women always tend to be the victims, not just in these cultures, but basically in almost all of them. I do know of one in Africa, I believe, were the roles are changed and women are in charge. I think its going to be very hard and its going to take a lot of time for society to see women as equals because we are a patriarchal society and well....everything is based on this foundation.

 

[xbeatofangelx]

I would prefer the 2nd article... being alive. Besides, it's not like these mormon women are being forced against their will into these marriages right? They ARE smart, and they just happen to make these choices. Choices which I wouldn't make, but if they agree with the circumstances, let them enjoy what they've chosen.

It's all about freedom of choice, freedom to make bad or good choices. Or bad choices =p.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdepp_84 In our society, this is not the correct behavior, and I strongly disagree with them. But we can't judge them or convince them that its wrong because its their culture and thats how they have been tought to behave.

I have never, ever understood this mindset. You bet your ass I judge these people. They are backwards and sexist. Just because it is their culture doesn't mean it isn't wrong. PARTICULARLY since they aren't in "their" culture anymore.



And as far as the second article goes, yes, in fact many of those women ARE forced into those marriages and at very young ages.



Both situations are f-ed beyond belief and wrong and saying that we shouldn't be judgmental about them is part of the reason these things persist. We SHOULD be judgmental and we should be damned pissed off that men think they can pull this crap in the year 2007.

 

[Dizzy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdepp_84 But we can't judge them or convince them that its wrong because its their culture and thats how they have been tought to behave. Im sure they see our society and think that we must be killed for certain things we do that we think are okay to do.

We most certainly can judge them.

It's those judgements that we have made that made events like the Women's Rights Movement and the Civil Rights Movement possible, the desegregation of facilities, etc. We judged them to be wrong, and we made improvements. We can't just condone outright murder because someone else's culture deems it acceptable; especially when that culture is directly imposing on the host nation's culture.

I've been to London, though it was a few years ago. I'm sure things have changed, but I'm not sure that murdering your daughter has become the preferred method of getting her to improve her dating choices.

You can't expect her to move to London at 11 yet be an "Iraqi in London" and shun British/Western culture completely. If he didn't want his daughter to become "westernized" why move her to London?

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xbeatofangelx I would prefer the 2nd article... being alive. Besides, it's not like these mormon women are being forced against their will into these marriages right? They ARE smart, and they just happen to make these choices. Choices which I wouldn't make, but if they agree with the circumstances, let them enjoy what they've chosen. It's all about freedom of choice, freedom to make bad or good choices. Or bad choices =p.

It's hard to say they have a choice. I really doubt many of these women have exposure outside of their mormon communities. So if you grow up in a polygamist household, with multiple moms, and 1 dad, and everyone around you has the same type of family, and everyone around you is telling you this is how it's always been, and this is how it's going to continue to be because it's GODS WILL! How do you have a choice? To say you don't want to be in a plural marriage would mean going against your faith, and if your entire community center's around your faith, thats a lot of pressure to conform.

I'm sure every one of these polygamists would be totally 100% AGAINST a woman having multiple husbands. When there is a double standard, you know it's wrong.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizzy You can't expect her to move to London at 11 yet be an "Iraqi in London" and shun British/Western culture completely. If he didn't want his daughter to become "westernized" why move her to London?

Thats why immigration is such a hot topic in many countries now. It's become pretty obvious the current flood of immigrants from other countries have no desire what so ever to assimilate into the current dominant culture, they just want to transplant their culture/beliefs/etc. from where they lived before, to where they are living now. And expect that the populations living there already, will look the other way.

 

[Dizzy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae Thats why immigration is such a hot topic in many countries now. It's become pretty obvious the current flood of immigrants from other countries have no desire what so ever to assimilate into the current dominant culture, they just want to transplant their culture/beliefs/etc. from where they lived before, to where they are living now. And expect that the populations living there already, will look the other way.

Which is a HUGE problem, imo. 'Honor killings', or whatever PC name they've come up with murdering your child lately, might be accepted wherever that person's culture originates from. I might not agree with that, and I certainly don't, but I also understand that I just can't waltz into Iran and demand that women be given the same rights as men.

Not my culture, not my place to change it.

However, when you walk into a western nation, you can't expect us to accept your culture's every quirk and nuance. Like a community in Canada had to pass a law saying that you couldn't stone women. It was a heavily Middle Eastern community.

As far as I know, Canada never had a problem with women getting stoned before. The fact that they even had to pass that law suggests to me that the women's rights issue isn't nearly complete since we have people who won't adapt to western culture and accept that women are equals to men. It's a case of keep your religion, but follow our culture, I think.

And I sincerely hope that woman's family is prosecuted to the fullest extent. It's people like them that are the reason I support capital punishment.

 

[triccc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xbeatofangelx I would prefer the 2nd article... being alive. Besides, it's not like these mormon women are being forced against their will into these marriages right? They ARE smart, and they just happen to make these choices. Choices which I wouldn't make, but if they agree with the circumstances, let them enjoy what they've chosen. It's all about freedom of choice, freedom to make bad or good choices. Or bad choices =p.

They ARE forced to these marriages. maybe not all of them, but a good amount are.
They don't have freedom like we do. some work so their husbands can take away their paychecks and then they must ask for everything.
Mormon fundalmentalists don't consider abuse against women a crime.
They are often forced to marry when they are underage to men 20+ years older than them or even to other relatives.
they think this is how their lives are supposed to be like and if they disobey they go to hell. it's slavery.
they brainwash them. they don't allow them to be properly educated.And they are condemned into eternity if they talk.
Some women want to escape,but sometimes they are just stuck, they own no property, have little education and no job training. typically they are bound by several children.
they don't enjoy what they've "chosen".

 

[faifai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae When there is a double standard, you know it's wrong.

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's not often that Raerae and I agree, but here she's spot on.

 

[Eemaan]

my goodness what a lovely bunch of generalisations

Polygamy: i see absolutely nothing wrong with it if it is a relationship of consent. and then absolutely none of anyones business given that everyone involved is content and pleased with the arrangement.

i cant see the honour killings article, the link expired.

 

[Beauty Mark]

If all parties consent to polygamy, I have no problem with it inherently. I don't think that it's necessarily run that way within most faiths.

I think the honor killing is worse, because until you get into the details, polygamy in and of itself isn't bad; I know some poly types who somehow make it work, but they also aren't Mormon. "Honor killing" is always bad.