Life as we know it...when did it begin [hot button debate]
- Thread starter tsukiyomi
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*Stargazer*
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Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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Your constant eye-rolling at people who don't agree with your opinion is certainly not the way to get anyone to give your arguments any credence at all.
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Originally Posted by tsukiyomi
They have exactly the same amount of chromosomes that we do. Just because they are unborn, I guess they aren't humans, eh? ::rolls eyes:: |
Your constant eye-rolling at people who don't agree with your opinion is certainly not the way to get anyone to give your arguments any credence at all.
tsukiyomi
Well-known member
Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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It's sarcasm...
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| Originally Posted by Ladybug10678
Your constant eye-rolling at people who don't agree with your opinion is certainly not the way to get anyone to give your arguments any credence at all. |
It's sarcasm...
*Stargazer*
Well-known member
Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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Thanks. I get that. What you don't seem to get is that it makes you look immature and ignorant because you can't come up with a rebuttal other than rolling your eyes.
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| Originally Posted by tsukiyomi
It's sarcasm... |
Thanks. I get that. What you don't seem to get is that it makes you look immature and ignorant because you can't come up with a rebuttal other than rolling your eyes.
tsukiyomi
Well-known member
Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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I guess you may have missed the words before the eye rolling. Sorry about that.
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| Originally Posted by Ladybug10678
Thanks. I get that. What you don't seem to get is that it makes you look immature and ignorant because you can't come up with a rebuttal other than rolling your eyes. |
I guess you may have missed the words before the eye rolling. Sorry about that.
*Stargazer*
Well-known member
Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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Great articles, Beauty. Personally, I believe live begins at implantation when an embryo has an actual chance at developing.
My issue with the stem cell argument is funny because both sides piss me off. I find the ban on federal funding to be stupid and shortsighted. However, I also find the people that claim that diseases will never be cured because of this ban to be arrogant and alarmist. The idea that only Americans can discover a cure using stem cells is laughable but some people would have you believe that if federal funding is not available, no one anywhere else is doing work on this. Granted, the more people doing research the better, obviously, but claiming that nothing will happen because of this federal funding ban is ludicrous. There are scientists outside of America LOL
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| Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
No, science doesn't. It's technically living, yes, but so is my skin, bones, blood, etc. Morals on when life starts is one of those things people choose to believe. Some don't believe a human being is one until it's out of the womb, others the minute the egg and sperm meet, and then there are those who think it's when the fetus could conceivably function outside. YMMV on that, but if you're going to debate something, understand the difference between moral convictions and science. Here's an article that lays it out. Here's another article that goes into the complexities of when life begins according to biology |
Great articles, Beauty. Personally, I believe live begins at implantation when an embryo has an actual chance at developing.
My issue with the stem cell argument is funny because both sides piss me off. I find the ban on federal funding to be stupid and shortsighted. However, I also find the people that claim that diseases will never be cured because of this ban to be arrogant and alarmist. The idea that only Americans can discover a cure using stem cells is laughable but some people would have you believe that if federal funding is not available, no one anywhere else is doing work on this. Granted, the more people doing research the better, obviously, but claiming that nothing will happen because of this federal funding ban is ludicrous. There are scientists outside of America LOL
Kimberleigh
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Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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Regardless of what the words preceding your eye rolling says, the mere act of rolling your eyes makes me discredit those words. I understand you're passionate about this topic, but it's hard for me to take anybody seriously who follows up every statement they make with ::rolls eyes:: It's not necessary; your words should be more powerful than the actions you take after they're said regardless of whether you think it's "sarcasm" or not. This isn't said in a shitty tone; I'm just explaining myself, and I'm not speaking on anyone else's behalf.
With that being said, it is in my personal opinion that a cluster of cells is not "human". If it cannot sustain life outside of the womb, and clearly an embryo needs implantation and about ~7-9 months to survive (if it's born prematurely, of course), it is not a "human being". It could potentially develop into a human being, but there is no guarantee.
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| Originally Posted by tsukiyomi
I guess you may have missed the words before the eye rolling. Sorry about that. |
Regardless of what the words preceding your eye rolling says, the mere act of rolling your eyes makes me discredit those words. I understand you're passionate about this topic, but it's hard for me to take anybody seriously who follows up every statement they make with ::rolls eyes:: It's not necessary; your words should be more powerful than the actions you take after they're said regardless of whether you think it's "sarcasm" or not. This isn't said in a shitty tone; I'm just explaining myself, and I'm not speaking on anyone else's behalf.
With that being said, it is in my personal opinion that a cluster of cells is not "human". If it cannot sustain life outside of the womb, and clearly an embryo needs implantation and about ~7-9 months to survive (if it's born prematurely, of course), it is not a "human being". It could potentially develop into a human being, but there is no guarantee.
frocher
Well-known member
Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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I agree, if it is not viable outside the womb, then it is not a person.
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| Originally Posted by Kimberleigh
. With that being said, it is in my personal opinion that a cluster of cells is not "human". If it cannot sustain life outside of the womb, and clearly an embryo needs implantation and about ~7-9 months to survive (if it's born prematurely, of course), it is not a "human being". It could potentially develop into a human being, but there is no guarantee. |
I agree, if it is not viable outside the womb, then it is not a person.
Raerae
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Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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My skin cells have chromosomes too. But no one would argue that getting a facial peel is the same as abortion. By your logic, a mother having a miscarriage, would have comitted murder because her body killed the unborn child. These embryo's aren't "un born." There not even in a uterous. There in a petri dish, or in a freezer, or flushed down the toilet, or thrown in the trash. Yes, embryo's are disgarded by the thousands every year.
So why again do you oppose this? There are 3 options for a unwanted embryo.
1.) Slowly dies in a freezer.
2.) It gets disgarded.
3.) Stem Cell Research.
All 3 of those options end with the destruction of an embryo. Why is option 3 so terrible, considering the alternatives?
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| Originally Posted by tsukiyomi
They have exactly the same amount of chromosomes that we do. Just because they are unborn, I guess they aren't humans, eh? ::rolls eyes:: |
My skin cells have chromosomes too. But no one would argue that getting a facial peel is the same as abortion. By your logic, a mother having a miscarriage, would have comitted murder because her body killed the unborn child. These embryo's aren't "un born." There not even in a uterous. There in a petri dish, or in a freezer, or flushed down the toilet, or thrown in the trash. Yes, embryo's are disgarded by the thousands every year.
So why again do you oppose this? There are 3 options for a unwanted embryo.
1.) Slowly dies in a freezer.
2.) It gets disgarded.
3.) Stem Cell Research.
All 3 of those options end with the destruction of an embryo. Why is option 3 so terrible, considering the alternatives?
Raerae
Well-known member
Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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Thats a problem though. You want the technology to be availible in your country, and for your country to be on the frontline of new discoveries. By limiting funding, we taking our contry out of the running to be at the forfront of new research.
Which means, you'll eigther have to leave the country to get stem cell treatments, or get treatment from old stem cell lines availible in the USA.
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| Originally Posted by Ladybug10678
There are scientists outside of America LOL |
Thats a problem though. You want the technology to be availible in your country, and for your country to be on the frontline of new discoveries. By limiting funding, we taking our contry out of the running to be at the forfront of new research.
Which means, you'll eigther have to leave the country to get stem cell treatments, or get treatment from old stem cell lines availible in the USA.
Kimberleigh
Well-known member
What I took from that article was that private companies are still ok to do stem cell research. Funding agencies such as NIH (National Institutes of Health), NSF (National Science Foundation), and any other agency that receives its funding from the federal gov't cannot receive funds to do research. A small privately run agency/company, if I read the article correctly, are still entitled to conduct research. These agencies are far and few between and seldom can give or grant these funds to researchers. I have a smidge of insight only because I'm a grant compliance monitor/accountant for a department that would LOVE to get their hands on stem cells for research on spinal cord injuries...
Edit: that makes it sound like the researchers in my department are frothing at the mouth for the cells. They would like the opportunity to test some of their theories in practice rather than imagining what it would be like. Sorry about that.
Edit: that makes it sound like the researchers in my department are frothing at the mouth for the cells. They would like the opportunity to test some of their theories in practice rather than imagining what it would be like. Sorry about that.
Kimberleigh
Well-known member
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Only if it's give to you. I do this for a living, and I'm watching my researcher's grant budgets get slashed on everything from schizophrenia research to decision making in drug abusers. I'm not sure what the "hot" new thing is in medical/psychological research is, but they're sure as shit tossing a TON of money to it to be cutting my budgets by 25% every budget year on a 5 year project period.
| Originally Posted by Raerae
Yeh Private companies are still OK to do it. But federal funding is a lot of $$$. |
Only if it's give to you. I do this for a living, and I'm watching my researcher's grant budgets get slashed on everything from schizophrenia research to decision making in drug abusers. I'm not sure what the "hot" new thing is in medical/psychological research is, but they're sure as shit tossing a TON of money to it to be cutting my budgets by 25% every budget year on a 5 year project period.
*Stargazer*
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Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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Of course we want to be at the forefront of discoveries. I just take exception to the idea that nothing will get discovered if Americans don't discover it which is what some people want us to believe.
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| Originally Posted by Raerae
Thats a problem though. You want the technology to be availible in your country, and for your country to be on the frontline of new discoveries. By limiting funding, we taking our contry out of the running to be at the forfront of new research. Which means, you'll eigther have to leave the country to get stem cell treatments, or get treatment from old stem cell lines availible in the USA. |
Of course we want to be at the forefront of discoveries. I just take exception to the idea that nothing will get discovered if Americans don't discover it which is what some people want us to believe.
Raerae
Well-known member
Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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I think their reasoning is more like, if we don't discover it, it won't be availible in the US, because the technology needed to do that type of science, will not be availible. So for most people in the USA, who don't have the money to travel out of country for treatments, thats as good as not discovered.
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| Originally Posted by Ladybug10678
Of course we want to be at the forefront of discoveries. I just take exception to the idea that nothing will get discovered if Americans don't discover it which is what some people want us to believe. |
I think their reasoning is more like, if we don't discover it, it won't be availible in the US, because the technology needed to do that type of science, will not be availible. So for most people in the USA, who don't have the money to travel out of country for treatments, thats as good as not discovered.
*Stargazer*
Well-known member
Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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But if you actually listen to some of them speak, they flat out say that things won't be discovered because of this. Not that the treatments won't be available, but that because Americans won't work on it, it will go undone. It was a big thing back around the last election time during that whole scandal thing with Michael J Fox going off his meds to make a commercial for some politician.
I do get what you are saying though. Although I don't know how much therapy and treatment that is waiting to be discovered will require use of stem cells as the treatment, if that makes sense.
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| Originally Posted by Raerae
I think their reasoning is more like, if we don't discover it, it won't be availible in the US, because the technology needed to do that type of science, will not be availible. So for most people in the USA, who don't have the money to travel out of country for treatments, thats as good as not discovered. |
But if you actually listen to some of them speak, they flat out say that things won't be discovered because of this. Not that the treatments won't be available, but that because Americans won't work on it, it will go undone. It was a big thing back around the last election time during that whole scandal thing with Michael J Fox going off his meds to make a commercial for some politician.
I do get what you are saying though. Although I don't know how much therapy and treatment that is waiting to be discovered will require use of stem cells as the treatment, if that makes sense.
Raerae
Well-known member
Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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Well isn't the idea behind stem cells, is that because they can turn into anything, they could be used to like grow parts of the body that need repair. And they are trying to figure out what controls the on and off switched to trigger the stemcells to turn into a specific type of cell.
I know when they do stemcell testing on mice, they inject the mice with stem cells. So I guess any future stem cell therapy would require a supply of stemcells to be used.
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| Originally Posted by Ladybug10678
I do get what you are saying though. Although I don't know how much therapy and treatment that is waiting to be discovered will require use of stem cells as the treatment, if that makes sense. |
Well isn't the idea behind stem cells, is that because they can turn into anything, they could be used to like grow parts of the body that need repair. And they are trying to figure out what controls the on and off switched to trigger the stemcells to turn into a specific type of cell.
I know when they do stemcell testing on mice, they inject the mice with stem cells. So I guess any future stem cell therapy would require a supply of stemcells to be used.
*Stargazer*
Well-known member
Re: The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)
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Yes, I believe that is the idea behind some of the stem cell research. I think another component of it has to do with gene therapy and other ideas that wouldn't require stem cells as part of the treatment.
The other complaint I have is that the people I've been bitching about also conveniently overlook the fact that much progress is being made with adult stem cells, which has no such funding restriction IIRC.
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| Originally Posted by Raerae
Well isn't the idea behind stem cells, is that because they can turn into anything, they could be used to like grow parts of the body that need repair. And they are trying to figure out what controls the on and off switched to trigger the stemcells to turn into a specific type of cell. I know when they do stemcell testing on mice, they inject the mice with stem cells. So I guess any future stem cell therapy would require a supply of stemcells to be used. |
Yes, I believe that is the idea behind some of the stem cell research. I think another component of it has to do with gene therapy and other ideas that wouldn't require stem cells as part of the treatment.
The other complaint I have is that the people I've been bitching about also conveniently overlook the fact that much progress is being made with adult stem cells, which has no such funding restriction IIRC.
Shimmer
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As someone who stands to benefit a LOT from stem cell research, I don't wholly endorse it, e.g. I don't say create embryos for the sake of destruction.
But...despite religious beliefs etc., I think, from unused, unwanted, wasted embryos, the gains to be made are unbelievable, and...with some research possibly life changing for me and my family.
But...despite religious beliefs etc., I think, from unused, unwanted, wasted embryos, the gains to be made are unbelievable, and...with some research possibly life changing for me and my family.
Raerae
Well-known member
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I agree with this as well. I think embry's should not be created specifically for the purpose of destroying them. But if they are going to waste anyways, might as well.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
As someone who stands to benefit a LOT from stem cell research, I don't wholly endorse it, e.g. I don't say create embryos for the sake of destruction. But...despite religious beliefs etc., I think, from unused, unwanted, wasted embryos, the gains to be made are unbelievable, and...with some research possibly life changing for me and my family. |
I agree with this as well. I think embry's should not be created specifically for the purpose of destroying them. But if they are going to waste anyways, might as well.
