The war in Iraq (split from WHO is Jesus?)
- Thread starter Shimmer
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Lalli
Well-known member
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*sigh* it is education woman i dont live amongst americans and all ive ever heard is the muslim view point to such events, is it that hard to understand
| Originally Posted by Dizzy You were given the "real" reasons of the war multiple times, yet you still ignored them. They're in the thread, just look. This isn't meant to sound bitchy by any means, but I couldn't find a non-bitchy way of asking this. How was this an education for you? You still refute all of our claims- that's not proof of any education from this. For all I know you could still misconstrue my words and twist them into anything you'd like should you choose to take them out of context. And everyone has an opinion, thus everyone takes sides. You can't sit on the fence forever, my dear. |
*sigh* it is education woman i dont live amongst americans and all ive ever heard is the muslim view point to such events, is it that hard to understand
Parishoon
Well-known member
**[deleted personal identifying info]**
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Lalli-jan, jazak-allahukhair, sweetie, you need to take a few minutes, write & rewrite your posts, and possibly try to separate different thoughts via spacing, periods, capitalization, they would help your arguements be clearer.
It would have previously been impossible for a civil war to erupt in Iraq, much like SAVAK under the Shah, the secret police were everywhere, and you never knew who could turn you in, so you'd be disappeared before you really ever got anything rolling. The one shot that was possible to have done it was after the First Gulf war, when the US allied itself in covert ops to train Shi'ites & Kurds to undermine the regime, however political pressures at home, led to the plug being pulled on that mission & those ppl were left to die.
This honestly has nothing to do with oil, there have been plans for "regime change" in Iraq since the Clinton era, however after somalia, he lacked the "testicular fortitude" to follow through with those plans. There was need for a forward strategic base in the region, but outside of Saudi. Honestly if the US wanted oil, they could easily resume drilling in West Texas, California, New Mexico, and buy rights in Mexico, and if they absolutely needed to invade somewhere, Venuzeula.
True, data was "stretched" and some truths "misrepresented," (they were trying to pin the anthrax attacks on Saddam, as well as suggest that the "mystery man" involved in the Oklahoma City bombing of the Murrah building was an Iraqi Secret Police agent). The WMD threat and possible ties to Al Queda were the only "excuses" that could be substaniated enough and tested well with the public.
True, majority of Iraqis don't want foreign troops in their country, but the thing about televising the war is that as the "rebels/insurrgents/word of the week" learned in Somalia, if you scare them enough, ie: take the life of a US (or other country) soldier, there will become larger and larger outcrys at home to pull out and pull out now. Because they must answer to the political reprucussions at home.
A bad example: some one who "floors it" through a yellow light but notices it's red & hits the breaks while their in the middle of the intersection & other cars have already started to go. There's gonna be a wreck & hitting the breaks after you've already accelerated & are moving through the intersection is still going to cause an accident.
apologies in advance for the multiple posts, I leave ya'll alone for 2 seconds & it's like WW-3
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| Originally Posted by Lalli Thing is if the civil wars had carried on it would be impossible for foreign countries to get what they want from there. the troops are sent just so things can be kept under "control" and oil is still supplied worldwide. you're entitled to your opinions and im entitled to mine whole reason america barged into Iraq was after 9/11 with claims that osama bin laden and saddam hussain are involved etc etc, yet they are still there. innocent troops r getting killed, and there is more and more case of suicide bombings and violence simply becasue they are not wanted there. its all political, no emotions involved |
Lalli-jan, jazak-allahukhair, sweetie, you need to take a few minutes, write & rewrite your posts, and possibly try to separate different thoughts via spacing, periods, capitalization, they would help your arguements be clearer.
It would have previously been impossible for a civil war to erupt in Iraq, much like SAVAK under the Shah, the secret police were everywhere, and you never knew who could turn you in, so you'd be disappeared before you really ever got anything rolling. The one shot that was possible to have done it was after the First Gulf war, when the US allied itself in covert ops to train Shi'ites & Kurds to undermine the regime, however political pressures at home, led to the plug being pulled on that mission & those ppl were left to die.
This honestly has nothing to do with oil, there have been plans for "regime change" in Iraq since the Clinton era, however after somalia, he lacked the "testicular fortitude" to follow through with those plans. There was need for a forward strategic base in the region, but outside of Saudi. Honestly if the US wanted oil, they could easily resume drilling in West Texas, California, New Mexico, and buy rights in Mexico, and if they absolutely needed to invade somewhere, Venuzeula.
True, data was "stretched" and some truths "misrepresented," (they were trying to pin the anthrax attacks on Saddam, as well as suggest that the "mystery man" involved in the Oklahoma City bombing of the Murrah building was an Iraqi Secret Police agent). The WMD threat and possible ties to Al Queda were the only "excuses" that could be substaniated enough and tested well with the public.
True, majority of Iraqis don't want foreign troops in their country, but the thing about televising the war is that as the "rebels/insurrgents/word of the week" learned in Somalia, if you scare them enough, ie: take the life of a US (or other country) soldier, there will become larger and larger outcrys at home to pull out and pull out now. Because they must answer to the political reprucussions at home.
A bad example: some one who "floors it" through a yellow light but notices it's red & hits the breaks while their in the middle of the intersection & other cars have already started to go. There's gonna be a wreck & hitting the breaks after you've already accelerated & are moving through the intersection is still going to cause an accident.
apologies in advance for the multiple posts, I leave ya'll alone for 2 seconds & it's like WW-3
Shimmer
Well-known member
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right on kiddo.
Like you were never rude at all.
Like you never said anything even remotely rude to anyone at all in this entire thread.
Sure thing kiddo.
| Originally Posted by Lalli im not cornered and i have nothing to hide, i want to learn about these things but if your going to sit here and be rude to me i wont fckin give a toss about what you think. |
right on kiddo.
Like you were never rude at all.
Like you never said anything even remotely rude to anyone at all in this entire thread.
Sure thing kiddo.
Lalli
Well-known member
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i know and can see what i wrote, because i wanted opinions, like i said if you knew me personally you would have a total diff reaction. anyone can e-beef over the net. i wanted to hear an alternative view
| Originally Posted by shimmer right on kiddo. Like you were never rude at all. Like you never said anything even remotely rude to anyone at all in this entire thread. Sure thing kiddo. |
i know and can see what i wrote, because i wanted opinions, like i said if you knew me personally you would have a total diff reaction. anyone can e-beef over the net. i wanted to hear an alternative view
Dizzy
Well-known member
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You said it yourself that you were asking for the education- this is very obviously a heated topic, especially when you're dealing with the military. Those who served their time and those who are relatives of the members of the military are very protective of their family members and of their views of the military. I hate to say it, but you asked for it. You say this is in the name of education, then you have to take all of the reprocussions of it in stride.
| Originally Posted by Lalli SHE was being rude to ME. read what i wrote i dont like the idea of disrespecting my elders. but shes constantly rude to me |
You said it yourself that you were asking for the education- this is very obviously a heated topic, especially when you're dealing with the military. Those who served their time and those who are relatives of the members of the military are very protective of their family members and of their views of the military. I hate to say it, but you asked for it. You say this is in the name of education, then you have to take all of the reprocussions of it in stride.
Lalli
Well-known member
I didnt start the whole muslim v americans beef. i wanted to hear an alternative view. over here if your within a group of people there is alot of negative responses towards americans. alot of muslims feel they are the root of all evil. im a neutral person i am willing to listen but if someone is constantly going to bash my views and not try and explain q's i raised about the media coverage over certain events then its not my fault. i will retaliate until i feel i get an answer which makes sense
edit: didnt see the dont quote bit Parishoon
edit: didnt see the dont quote bit Parishoon
Lalli
Well-known member
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and i have done so. so what if you think the points i made are not relevant. Shimmer keeps saying ive backed into a corner and have nothing to say if i wanted to i wouldnt reply back, you're all against me and im still here, which shows i am looking for answers i am strong enough to handle the reprocussions
| Originally Posted by Dizzy You said it yourself that you were asking for the education- this is very obviously a heated topic, especially when you're dealing with the military. Those who served their time and those who are relatives of the members of the military are very protective of their family members and of their views of the military. I hate to say it, but you asked for it. You say this is in the name of education, then you have to take all of the reprocussions of it in stride. |
and i have done so. so what if you think the points i made are not relevant. Shimmer keeps saying ive backed into a corner and have nothing to say if i wanted to i wouldnt reply back, you're all against me and im still here, which shows i am looking for answers i am strong enough to handle the reprocussions
Lalli
Well-known member
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im not lashing out, im looking for answers, lashing out would be me being judgemental rude racist, disrespectful, im asking questions which are raised everyday and i want the answers
| Originally Posted by Dizzy If you were truly strong enough to handle it, you wouldn't lash out every chance you get. Being resiliant and being strong are two different creatures. |
im not lashing out, im looking for answers, lashing out would be me being judgemental rude racist, disrespectful, im asking questions which are raised everyday and i want the answers
pumpkincat210
Well-known member
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This is particularly sad. I'm sorry so many Muslims believe that American's are the root of all evil. It is simply not true. Most Americans want to live peaceful lives and I would concur that Muslims feel the same. We all want our children to grow up in a peaceful environment without the fear of secret police and bombs.
| Originally Posted by Lalli alot of muslims feel they [americans] are the root of all evil. |
This is particularly sad. I'm sorry so many Muslims believe that American's are the root of all evil. It is simply not true. Most Americans want to live peaceful lives and I would concur that Muslims feel the same. We all want our children to grow up in a peaceful environment without the fear of secret police and bombs.
Parishoon
Well-known member
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Much of the reason for non-involvement is dealing w/ colonial guilt, and it's really sad that as soon as you think a country is turning the tide, something else comes up & it's back where it started. (a great book to understand some of this is Leopold's Ghost)
Sudan: we did help, help make it worse, and at the same time we are providing a little aid to the refugees. We support the Khartoum govt, even though there is evidence to show that they are providing support through back channels to the Janjuweed. I've several friends/classmates over there/recently returned & one had left right before the recent outbreak of rapes in the camps. so sad.
It's probably gone now, but the holocaust museum in DC had an excellent chronicle of the genocide by "witnesses" & it's kinda sad that at the time of Hotel Rwanda's release much fervor was raised about not again, but then we just said meh.
A few NGOs have pulled out b/c it's the only tool they have to combat politics, and it becomes a very tough question of do we stay & abide by the govt rules, even if they're inhuman/we don't agree, but at least we're helping, or do we go as a statement.
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he did use that crap on the iranians. Mustard & serin gas as well as traditional ordinances shelled iranian cities everynight for about 8 years, no one in the US really cared b/c at the time, the iranians were on the "bad list" (not like they got off), & the US supplied these weapons & other information through technology transfers, hence our superior knowledge of what should be there. True that nobody would stand up to him, they viewed containment as a more viable option.
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Some signed up knowing they might face a war, but many didn't believe they'd get "the call." It's like they knew the risks, and they still did it, and are there b/c it's their duty/job, not because they were like hoo-rah, let's go play war. You can't talk about it for morale reasons, it's like if you don't like it keep your mouth shut, b/c being distracted by that sort of stuff is likely to get you killed.
| Originally Posted by youbeabitch Countries can't fight these things by themselves without outside help. Look at Sudan. We haven't helped them that much and look where its gotton them. Look at Zimbabwae, no one has helped them that much and yet another dictator has gained power. |
Much of the reason for non-involvement is dealing w/ colonial guilt, and it's really sad that as soon as you think a country is turning the tide, something else comes up & it's back where it started. (a great book to understand some of this is Leopold's Ghost)
Sudan: we did help, help make it worse, and at the same time we are providing a little aid to the refugees. We support the Khartoum govt, even though there is evidence to show that they are providing support through back channels to the Janjuweed. I've several friends/classmates over there/recently returned & one had left right before the recent outbreak of rapes in the camps. so sad.
It's probably gone now, but the holocaust museum in DC had an excellent chronicle of the genocide by "witnesses" & it's kinda sad that at the time of Hotel Rwanda's release much fervor was raised about not again, but then we just said meh.
A few NGOs have pulled out b/c it's the only tool they have to combat politics, and it becomes a very tough question of do we stay & abide by the govt rules, even if they're inhuman/we don't agree, but at least we're helping, or do we go as a statement.
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| Originally Posted by youbeabitch Furthermore, how often, Lalli, do you expect a leader of the country in the UN to ignore its sanctions? The UN gave him orders to let them see into his country to look for WMD and somehow he wouldn't let them in. He actually told one group they had 48 hours to leave his country. He did genocide for his people-EVEN if they weren't the Sunni's and the man kept breaking the laws but no other country cared. Who cared if he might decide to try some of the crap he used with his people on say the Iranians or maybe Kuwait? Nobody would stand up to him. |
he did use that crap on the iranians. Mustard & serin gas as well as traditional ordinances shelled iranian cities everynight for about 8 years, no one in the US really cared b/c at the time, the iranians were on the "bad list" (not like they got off), & the US supplied these weapons & other information through technology transfers, hence our superior knowledge of what should be there. True that nobody would stand up to him, they viewed containment as a more viable option.
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| Originally Posted by youbeabitch Now about these "innocent troops", darlin, they signed up to go over there. When they joined the military they signed saying it would be OK to go into war. They know. If they didn't agree with the war they wouldnt be there-instead they'd be over here sitting on their ass. |
Some signed up knowing they might face a war, but many didn't believe they'd get "the call." It's like they knew the risks, and they still did it, and are there b/c it's their duty/job, not because they were like hoo-rah, let's go play war. You can't talk about it for morale reasons, it's like if you don't like it keep your mouth shut, b/c being distracted by that sort of stuff is likely to get you killed.
Lalli
Well-known member
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hence i want to know why do muslims feel like this, why is there such bad press on america, why do they feel they are causing evil. pointless me asking someone living here because they all have the same opinions
| Originally Posted by pumpkincat210 This is particularly sad. I'm sorry so many Muslims believe that American's are the root of all evil. It is simply not true. Most Americans want to live peaceful lives and I would concur that Muslims feel the same. We all want our children to grow up in a peaceful environment without the fear of secret police and bombs. |
hence i want to know why do muslims feel like this, why is there such bad press on america, why do they feel they are causing evil. pointless me asking someone living here because they all have the same opinions
Lalli
Well-known member
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Those!! those questions are on lots of young muslim peoples lives today over here especially after 7/7 and all muslims were typecast as terrorists. i wanted a different opinion. why is there so much hatred for america, there MUST be a reason
| Originally Posted by Dizzy I haven't seen any questions from you, only media rhetoric regurgitated. What questions are you trying to answer, exactly? |
Those!! those questions are on lots of young muslim peoples lives today over here especially after 7/7 and all muslims were typecast as terrorists. i wanted a different opinion. why is there so much hatred for america, there MUST be a reason
Parishoon
Well-known member
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The rapes, it's been known for one group to steal uniforms of their enemies & rape ppl to create distrust among a community for these outsiders. Also, not to try to shift blame, but there are plenty of PMCs (private military companies) operating in Iraq. They don't wear civilian clothing, but uniforms.
On the count you allege, I can't answer but for the info I have, and that is if it is occuring, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, & the UNHCR would be all over that, and none of them have released any documents to my knowledge. And they would definately look into matters such as rape and if evidence found bring it to the Hague for violation of the Geneva Conventions.
As much as I wish it had, the non-signing of the ICJ "agreement/treaty" is protecting Americans right now from being tried for trumped up charges.
(US wasn't getting Iraqi oil before, the EU was the main buyer)
| Originally Posted by Lalli what about all these so called american soldiers raping and killing innocent women. what about all those pictures released in the tabloids of soldiers treating the citizens like sh it. im not sayin the iraqis dont appreciate the help they get BUT its also causing more problems. and again america is a oil greedy nation. if they dont have power of those nations means oil supplies will stop. it is all to do with money and oil, and troops are wasting their time and tax payers money out there |
The rapes, it's been known for one group to steal uniforms of their enemies & rape ppl to create distrust among a community for these outsiders. Also, not to try to shift blame, but there are plenty of PMCs (private military companies) operating in Iraq. They don't wear civilian clothing, but uniforms.
On the count you allege, I can't answer but for the info I have, and that is if it is occuring, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, & the UNHCR would be all over that, and none of them have released any documents to my knowledge. And they would definately look into matters such as rape and if evidence found bring it to the Hague for violation of the Geneva Conventions.
As much as I wish it had, the non-signing of the ICJ "agreement/treaty" is protecting Americans right now from being tried for trumped up charges.
(US wasn't getting Iraqi oil before, the EU was the main buyer)
Dizzy
Well-known member
There is so much hatred because most people don't want to understand another persons culture. There's always been hatred for America. I'll be honest- most of my life I've been lucky. I've been out of the country more times than I can count and I have dual citizenship, and every time I've been to another country I've heard comments on how "America doesn't do enough" and how Americans are lazy, we're greedy, we're stupid, we don't want to learn about other countries, we're only concerned about America, etc. Which all of that is SO far from the truth. It's just people don't want to understand American culture, or maybe some people just can't understand it. Some things aren't meant to be embraced by all.
Parishoon
Well-known member
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lots spoke against that genoicide, but as it wasn't important at the time, it didn't get covered. Iranians were supposed to have right of passage to Karbala (a holy site for Shi'ites) & some would be plucked outta the caravans. Their voices silenced over time as they realized that no one could/would help them, & it's better to suffer in silence than speak out and make your whole family & anyone you've ever come in contact w/ a target. Power through fear. A lot of these stories are only coming out now as his secret police & such are being brought to justice, his sons are dead, and he's in prison, so they are no longer afraid to speak out.
I'm not sure what you mean by going to bat for them? Do you mean taking care of him themselves? Unfortunately, those countries have a lot to worry about with their own internal politics/trouble makers/problems/disappeared ppl to have come together to do something about him.
| Originally Posted by shimmer Bullshit. American soldiers raping and killing innocent women intentionally doesn't happen. The VAST majority of the soldiers who are over there have ZERO interest in the women there. I see you live in the UK. Go live life in Iraq as a female for a few years and let us know how you feel about the presence of the troops after staying in more fundamental areas vs areas with a stronger troop presence. As I stated in the other thread, you're grasping now, much as quandolak was. Even more to the point... Who is going to stand up for the underdogs in that area? You haven't answered that. I haven't seen any so called peace loving Muslims speaking out against the genocide, nor have I seen them stepping up to the plate and going to bat for the masses who were being tortured, killed, and hunted down by Hussein's regime. |
lots spoke against that genoicide, but as it wasn't important at the time, it didn't get covered. Iranians were supposed to have right of passage to Karbala (a holy site for Shi'ites) & some would be plucked outta the caravans. Their voices silenced over time as they realized that no one could/would help them, & it's better to suffer in silence than speak out and make your whole family & anyone you've ever come in contact w/ a target. Power through fear. A lot of these stories are only coming out now as his secret police & such are being brought to justice, his sons are dead, and he's in prison, so they are no longer afraid to speak out.
I'm not sure what you mean by going to bat for them? Do you mean taking care of him themselves? Unfortunately, those countries have a lot to worry about with their own internal politics/trouble makers/problems/disappeared ppl to have come together to do something about him.
pumpkincat210
Well-known member
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The U.S. just can't win. If we go in.. we get criticized, if we don't we get criticized.
I find the "lazy american" saying particularly untrue. We are workaholics.. I know of some European countries that get to take a month vacation-that is just awesome! Americans are lucky if they get an extra 3 day weekend with most jobs. Not all Americans are rich. Maybe 2%. I don't think I personally know anyone with a million dollars here.
I don't agree with many of George Bush's policy's, and i didn't vote for him. Luckily we live in a democracy where the majority can choose their leaders.. and that is very fair. Many people believe Bush cheated and hate him. If I had a choice this would be an isolationist country(we stay out of your business..if you stay out of ours). Unfortunately at this point we can't leave Iraq now because it will fall into the hands of people that would take advantage of the situation and not give it to the good people of iraq that want peace.
American's used to be known as the good guys.
| Originally Posted by Lalli hence i want to know why do muslims feel like this, why is there such bad press on america, why do they feel they are causing evil. pointless me asking someone living here because they all have the same opinions |
The U.S. just can't win. If we go in.. we get criticized, if we don't we get criticized.
I find the "lazy american" saying particularly untrue. We are workaholics.. I know of some European countries that get to take a month vacation-that is just awesome! Americans are lucky if they get an extra 3 day weekend with most jobs. Not all Americans are rich. Maybe 2%. I don't think I personally know anyone with a million dollars here.
I don't agree with many of George Bush's policy's, and i didn't vote for him. Luckily we live in a democracy where the majority can choose their leaders.. and that is very fair. Many people believe Bush cheated and hate him. If I had a choice this would be an isolationist country(we stay out of your business..if you stay out of ours). Unfortunately at this point we can't leave Iraq now because it will fall into the hands of people that would take advantage of the situation and not give it to the good people of iraq that want peace.
American's used to be known as the good guys.
