The war in Iraq (split from WHO is Jesus?)

[Hawkeye]

Lalli,
Again, I know you're feeling attacked but I'm trying to be the one whose not flat out attacking you but sort of helping you as I do believe your thoughts and opinion are valid-though not necessarily well thought out.
are you watching the same press I am? Most americans have no problems with muslims.
And the truth of the matter is the reason most Muslims hate Americans is because of 2 fundamental problems.
1) They hate us because they dont like the fact we have the right to worship anyway we want to. If you notice in many countries such as: Pakastan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria prodominately muslim countries they have a very sanctioned of how you do things.
2) They hate the economic situation we are in. Our economy is awesome compared to theirs.

And lastely,
regarding the situation in Zimbabwae, don't even get me started on that. Again you must read the history and the situation on this.

Mugabe President of Zimbabwae is a horrible horrible man-and he is about to have a civil war break out in his own country but people are too afraid of him. There is very just cause for that too.

The reason HE hasn't gotton booted out yet-is because of this (the same exact reason why it took Hussain so long to get booted out) the first thing to do is to get the people to be willing to fight and there is a lot of fight left in the people. Once they realize it is hopeless and then more crimes against humanity start happening then the world begins to get involved. Already the UN is taking action with Mugabe.

 

[Parishoon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli how do you justify the holding of young children in Guantanamo Bay, in camp X Ray. an American led Camp, i respect your opinions but you cant just try to make it sound like my opinions are not justified,

the same way, in Sierra Leone young children were made soldiers. It may not be right, but in a regular army, there are age limits and other standards, where in irregulars there are not. If a child of 7 is pointing a fully automatic AK47 at your or wielding a machete and threatening to kill you, they have made themselves combatants. The human rights groups fought to get the young kids out as they have no way to "conciously consent" to engaging in battle. They are young and don't understand fully the ramifications of their choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli Kanye west isnt a joke. he made a valid point. why was aid so slow? is it because it was a highly black populated area. why do celebrites fork out more then the actual government do, why isnt the "greatest nation on earth" helping to end more important things like poverty and 3rd world debts. why get involved in a civil war when you're not wanted there in the first place.

Kanye West is a joke. You NEVER rush into a situation & try to "fix it" w/o doing a needs assessment & understanding where the problem is/what's going on. Yes conditions were deplorable, but also
Celebrities should fork out more, in fact anyone who makes enough to donate but doesn't is a miser IMO. True the US foreign aid spending is maybe less than 2% of the budget, but many americans are isolationists (as shimmer expressed in her response to your original post about aid) and don't realize that due to technological and other advances the world is more connected today than it was is previous eras, so to them, they want to spend their money at home instead of fixing stuff abroad (& believe me we've got enough problems). However, this year in an effort of showmanship or what, as i've yet to see the actual funds promised be delivered, the President has pledged $250 million to malaria under tha President's Malaria Initiative. you've got to crawl before you walk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli billions of dollars spent on war could easily have wiped out 3rd world debts and help people with AID's TB and other infectious diseases. help all those kids dying in africa, help your own nation get rid of its slums and help homeless people. no instead go and sit on another countries door step and spend time there waste money recieve fame and spark more issues

True, but it also applies to all the wealthy nations, like Bono pleaded at the G-8 summit in Gleneagles and I do believe he was able to have them forgive a portion of the dept. Believe me, ppl in development wish we had the budget that defense does, but we've also realized that traditional international aid is ineffective. The whole "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime." is a bit more what they're shooting for today. They're looking more and more towards the public-private cooperative missions and it seems to be having good results.
That opinion is a uniquely European one, being how involved they have been in international aid since it's inception. In America, some view it as protecting their strategic interests. We also have an aversion to helping others in the sense of providing government welfare/assistance. The "American Way" is to make it for yourself, rags to riches, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and rely on no one else for help

The type of taxation system and other things required to ensure the health/life/wealth of every individual in the country is viewed as socialist. Because America today was greatly shaped by the cold war, there is a mistrust of that system, plus a feeling that I earned it I deserve to keep it.

It's different to grow up in a system and have to get a job to have health care, pay to attend school, but only pay a small portion of your salary for taxes (relative to European tax).

 

[Parishoon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli third world countries are in debt because of nations like america and britain, they pay so much interest back that they cant even make a better living. as for me spending your tax money i dont need to, i study and work hard for a living ive never been one 2 scrounge off others, yet you'd rather see your money spent on a pointless war in iraq

I don't think shimmer meant you personally "mooching" off her tax money, but that she'd rather spend her tax dollars on domestic issues than foreign aid, an attitude common among the american people and dating back a long time. It's important to try to separate the people of America from the Government. While America is a majority rule with minority rights state, it is not perfect, and often the majority is the only opinion/view heard in the rest of the world. Quite similar to how extremist who do things in the name of Islam are "allowed" to speak for all Muslims.

In the US you cannot pick and choose where your tax dollars are spent. You pay your share, they pool the money, and Congress drafts the budget and sends it to the President. These two bicker back and forth about what money belongs where & it takes forever.

You're right about the interest on foreign loans, but the US is currently running a deficient and a majority of our loans are being held by foreign governments. If they were to call the loans now, the US would be as bad off as the developing nations.

The World Bank and IMF (international monetary fund) are just as responsible as the countries holding the original notes, because when they offer a country "restructuring" (basically refinancing their loans) there are other stipulations put in place which are difficult to achieve w/o additional capital, and then they get penalties for not meeting the terms. Also the developing nations heads of states are notorious for "siphoning" funds/ providing kickbacks etc. It's really a two way street, if they weren't being given the money, they wouldn't be doing it.

To better undrstand this, I'd suggest reading Jeffery Sachs "The End of Poverty: Economic Possibilities for Our Time."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli main reason was to find osama bin laden in AFGHANISTAN. why isnt he found? why is he being allowed to be treated in AMERICAN hospitals in places like Dubai. HE was the reason war started yet a single man couldnt be caught. tut

this i have no answer. if we honestly wanted him, we should have picked him up in Sudan.
money can buy you lots of things.

 

[Hawkeye]

Another good book to help understand economic situations is Commanding Heights

 

[pumpkincat210]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch Another good book to help understand economic situations is Commanding Heights

I think that was made into a show on PBS too?
Its vaguely familiar.

 

[Parishoon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli and wtf do you mean by "your muslim brethren" do you not listen to what i say? THOSE WHO KILL IN THE NAME OF ALLAH IN THIS SO CALLED JIHAD ARE NOT AND I REPEAT ARE NOT MUSLIMS IN MY EYES" so dont you dare say they are MY muslim brethren

I agree here, Muslims wouldn't attack women and children. The insurgents are using it as an excuse. Killing in the name of God(swt) for earthly gain.

If I could talk sense into them I would, but they see their situation as hopeless, and along comes a smooth talking guy who can offer them more than I can. The guycan take care of his family, all I can promise is that someday, maybe not today, and maybe not tomorrow, things will be better if you stick it out. They want the easy out, and don't understand freedom/independence/whatever you want to call it, is worth the struggle to obtain it.

 

[Parishoon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli Those!! those questions are on lots of young muslim peoples lives today over here especially after 7/7 and all muslims were typecast as terrorists. i wanted a different opinion. why is there so much hatred for america, there MUST be a reason

... Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch are you watching the same press I am? Most americans have no problems with muslims. And the truth of the matter is the reason most Muslims hate Americans is because of 2 fundamental problems. 1) They hate us because they dont like the fact we have the right to worship anyway we want to. If you notice in many countries such as: Pakastan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria prodominately muslim countries they have a very sanctioned of how you do things. 2) They hate the economic situation we are in. Our economy is awesome compared to theirs.

...

Youbea, I party agree with you, and partly disagree.

America is hated for several things.
Hegemony being one. There is no balance of power. Other countries view America as the school yard bully. Be my friend or I'll beat you up. Right or Wrong it's the perception out there.

Their hatred(sp) for our economic situation ties into theirs. Many heads of states make very lucrative livings off American investments, but don't share this wealth with the rest of the population. Some might view it as helping to "keep the population down." (if that makes sense) Trust me, many Muslims in countries you named hate their own governments with more passion than they do the US, but fear voicing that opinion. This doesn't just apply to Muslim nations, but any where the government profits while the people live in abject poverty.

Part of the hatred comes from fear. Many people are leaving their "culture" to follow the ways of the west, and I'm not talking about religion here. People are becoming more selfish, consumer driven, (not that it's an all bad thing), and neglecting familial duties. The older generation fears for the well being of a younger generation going through what took the US several decades, in a span of a few years. Satellites and other technology only increase this. I can see how this culture over-saturation can infringe on how one wants to worship, but I don't think it's a major source of hatred.

I disagree that Muslims hate the freedom to worship, b/c you can do it, you just have to learn to be discreet(sp).

In Iran, those feeling run way deeper and involve grievances from the past & is definately only towards the gov't & its policies.

Many in those contries differentiate btwn the American People & the Government. They dislike the government because they feel it's policies are wronging them, but they love the people and the culture (why else do you think they let Michael Jackson in Dubai?

)

 

[Hawkeye]

It's OK to disagree with me

Especially if you have good facts to back yourself up with and you do!

and as for Michael J in Dubai, ROFLMAO!

 

[Parishoon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli I didnt start the whole muslim v americans beef. i wanted to hear an alternative view. over here if your within a group of people there is alot of negative responses towards americans. alot of muslims feel they are the root of all evil. im a neutral person i am willing to listen but if someone is constantly going to bash my views and not try and explain q's i raised about the media coverage over certain events then its not my fault. i will retaliate until i feel i get an answer which makes sense edit: didnt see the dont quote bit Parishoon

i just didn't want ppl quoting the top part with my personal information. I wanted to kinda give a background so everyone could know that I'm "all up in" this mess, and the numerous different points of view on the issue that I have.

I didn't mean to imply anyone started it. I was just surprised to see it had spiraled so far from the other thread. It was like woah, suddenly deep thoughts isn't so Jack Handy deep thoughts, but real serious stuff.

I understand feeling frustrated when you feel you're making a valid point/want a question answered, but sometimes, it's best to try to rephrase the question and ask again. As Muslims, we do need to temper our passions to get our points across, the moment we start going with our gut response and letting passion over take our more calm reasonable sides, the reaction will be, something like see you just can't reason with those people. It's hard and frustrating, and you may feel like shaking some one and screaming why can't you understand, but you won't get anywhere like that.

Pls don't feel like anyone here is attacking you, you're actually getting a pretty good sample of American views on the issue.

edit:edited wrong post, woops

 

[pumpkincat210]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch It's OK to disagree with me Especially if you have good facts to back yourself up with and you do! and as for Michael J in Dubai, ROFLMAO!

Yeah, i have to agree with the michael jackson in dubai. thriller was great, lol.

 

[Lalli]

darling i didnt ONCE mention zimbabwae. i didnt bring it up. as for the two fundamental reasons provided your'e also forgetting Saudia Arabia along with a few other arab emirate countries are the richest and have the strongest economy ever. you cnt even buy a house in saudi unless you're a native or prepared to pay billions. so theres more to it then money. alot more then just the economy. dont understand you're first point of being able to pray when you want, there are mosques, temples, gurdwara's, synagogues scattered ALL over america and the U.K. so its cant be the freedom to how you can pray an all


Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch Lalli, Again, I know you're feeling attacked but I'm trying to be the one whose not flat out attacking you but sort of helping you as I do believe your thoughts and opinion are valid-though not necessarily well thought out. are you watching the same press I am? Most americans have no problems with muslims. And the truth of the matter is the reason most Muslims hate Americans is because of 2 fundamental problems. 1) They hate us because they dont like the fact we have the right to worship anyway we want to. If you notice in many countries such as: Pakastan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria prodominately muslim countries they have a very sanctioned of how you do things. 2) They hate the economic situation we are in. Our economy is awesome compared to theirs. And lastely, regarding the situation in Zimbabwae, don't even get me started on that. Again you must read the history and the situation on this. Mugabe President of Zimbabwae is a horrible horrible man-and he is about to have a civil war break out in his own country but people are too afraid of him. There is very just cause for that too. The reason HE hasn't gotton booted out yet-is because of this (the same exact reason why it took Hussain so long to get booted out) the first thing to do is to get the people to be willing to fight and there is a lot of fight left in the people. Once they realize it is hopeless and then more crimes against humanity start happening then the world begins to get involved. Already the UN is taking action with Mugabe.

 

[Shimmer]

Posted at someone's request:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymous "Young lady I realize that you, like I did at the same age, knew everthing and could solve all of the problems of the world if everybody would just do what you think they should. Unfortunately over time you learn that the world is full of people with opposing views. The simple fact is this. The most visible people in your chosen religion profess a hatred of all that is beautiful and sacred to me. They have killed innocent men, women, and children, in the thousands and possibly millions to make a political statement. They have threatened the security of a country that I love and the freedoms I enjoy bought and paid for by the blood and lives of American soldiers who have over the last century had to leave their homes and families and fight tyrrany wherever it raised it's head. Would you agree that the destruction of the third reich and the axis alliance was a good thing? Would you agree that the demise of the Soviet Union at the end of the cold war and the freedoms granted to the European countries by this was also a good thing? The members of your religion who profess to want to kill all infidels threaten my family, my friends, and me. Let me give you an analagy. A wolf is seen on my property and everytime he sees someone from my family he growls and acts in a threatening manner. What should I do? As a believer in letting the wolf live his own life and not bothering him so long as he doesn't bother me I leave him alone and tell my family to avoid him. One fine day my children are playing in the yard and the wolf attacks and kills my child. Should I maintain my stance in letting the wolf alone or should I hunt it down and kill it? If I find it in a den of other wolves should I leave them alone but only kill the wolf that has attacked my child? How do I tell one wolf from the other? This is the position that the visible members of YOUR religion have put tus in. If you so believe in your stance let me make a suggestion to you. Get involved in change in your religion and counsel a more moderate stance towards the rest of the world because until such time that all wolves can be trusted it's much safer for me, if I want to myself and my loved ones to be safe, to be wary of wolves and ready to dispatch them should I feel in any way threatened. War is a sad and terrible thing but sometimes it's a necessary thing. I'm sure that if all of the radicals and terrorists wanted to line up on a real field of battle with all innocent women and children safely away from the field that the Armies of Europe and America would be more than happy to meet them in a fair fight. The soldiers of the Allied force in Iraq do not hide among the civilian populace. The cowards that profess to follow the Muslim faith do. They are dangerous wolves that need to be done away with and, sadly, this means that innocent people will die sheerly by the bad luck of being born where the wolves prowl."

 

[Lalli]

so why does america use cheap PR and make films such as United 93 despite the fact there was no flight 93.. and try to highlight something which hasnt even taken place.

 

[Shimmer]

There was no flight 93?

On what do you base this statement?

at this point, I have to say you're doing nothing but attempting to stir up trouble by asking pointless, obviously inflammatory, uneducated questions.


interesting interview and insight as to certain perceptions

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli darling i didnt ONCE mention zimbabwae. i didnt bring it up. as for the two fundamental reasons provided your'e also forgetting Saudia Arabia along with a few other arab emirate countries are the richest and have the strongest economy ever. you cnt even buy a house in saudi unless you're a native or prepared to pay billions. so theres more to it then money. alot more then just the economy. dont understand you're first point of being able to pray when you want, there are mosques, temples, gurdwara's, synagogues scattered ALL over america and the U.K. so its cant be the freedom to how you can pray an all

How does not being able to buy a house unless you're native or prepped to pay billions equal a strong economy?
Also, religious freedom in America doesn't just extend to Muslims, as America allows all forms of religion to be practiced. In doing so, it's an offense to certain muslim sects in that they believe that their way is the only way.

 

[Hawkeye]

OK Now we KNOW for a fact, that this person has 1) No clue what their talking about 2) can't keep their facts straight 3)and is also probably among the younger crowd.

Lalli, I love ya, but that statement above is what makes people question your validity. What do you mean that flight 97 never happened? That is the most absurd ludricous remark I have ever heard. That's right up there with people thinking the Holocost didnt happen.

Oh but wait, it's not all lovey dovey and it helped start a war so-yeah the holocost never did happen *rolls eyes*

And yes, you did mention zimbabwae.

 

[Lalli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer There was no flight 93? On what do you base this statement? at this point, I have to say you're doing nothing but attempting to stir up trouble by asking pointless, obviously inflammatory, uneducated questions. interesting interview and insight as to certain perceptions

there was no flight 93 heading towards pensalvaniya why are there so many documentaries on this, and dont say theyre from muslim sources they're from american sources. im NOT stirring up trouble, YOU YOURSELF SAID "GO EDUCATE YOURSELF" blah blah so im asking questions if you dont like it, dont quote what i say or even answer what im asking, simple really

 

[Lalli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch OK Now we KNOW for a fact, that this person has 1) No clue what their talking about 2) can't keep their facts straight 3)and is also probably among the younger crowd. Lalli, I love ya, but that statement above is what makes people question your validity. What do you mean that flight 97 never happened? That is the most absurd ludricous remark I have ever heard. That's right up there with people thinking the Holocost didnt happen. Oh but wait, it's not all lovey dovey and it helped start a war so-yeah the holocost never did happen *rolls eyes* And yes, you did mention zimbabwae.

FLIGHT 93, NOT 97
WHERE did i mention zimbabwae, i mentioned kids suffering in poverty i AFRICA, i didnt mention a specific country, what i fail to understand is when im asking questions which the media claim you make assumptions about me and and say i dont knw what im talking about, cnt keep my facts straight and im of a younger crowd, yet you all contradict my self and are damn right rude to me and say i need to educate myself, whatever

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli there was no flight 93 heading towards pensalvaniya why are there so many documentaries on this, and dont say theyre from muslim sources they're from american sources. im NOT stirring up trouble, YOU YOURSELF SAID "GO EDUCATE YOURSELF" blah blah so im asking questions if you dont like it, dont quote what i say or even answer what im asking, simple really

Cite your sources stating that there was no flight 93.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalli FLIGHT 93, NOT 97 WHERE did i mention zimbabwae, i mentioned kids suffering in poverty i AFRICA, i didnt mention a specific country, what i fail to understand is when im asking questions which the media claim you make assumptions about me and and say i dont knw what im talking about, cnt keep my facts straight and im of a younger crowd, yet you all contradict my self and are damn right rude to me and say i need to educate myself, whatever

She made a typo.

You ask questions, then when you hear an answer you don't like you say "OH that can't be it!!!" and discount it.
You can't keep up with the pace with which your mouth is firing off.
You DON'T know what you're talking about, you've yet to cite ANYTHING other than to freely admit you're regurgitating what the media has fed you.
You ARE of a younger crowd. You're nineteen. You haven't figured out a LOT of life yet.
You DO need to educate yourself, as is evidenced by your syntax and grammar, as well as your repeated reluctance to accept what is handed to you as truth.