Religious Extremists.

[user79]

To clarify my statement from before, the thing is that religion does or has done FAR MORE bad things than the "good" things as some have stated. Sure, there are some social aspects that may be good about religion, but I don't think it's necessary to be religious to engage in that. Like checking up on a neighbour when they are ill, how is it relevant that the person is religious or not?

Plus, I firmly believe that all the religions based on The Book for example, as well as others, are preaching pure falsehoods that have never been proven to be true, in fact scientific discovery has proved the opposite. So I don't see how it can be condoned as a good thing to continue spreading falsehoods for centuries to keep people under control. Religion has always been used that way.

Also, what someone else said about Christianity helping them to be a good person...I'm an atheist but I still have morality and I also try to be a good person. So in a way this argument doesn't really hold up because you can still have morals without being religious.

If there was no religion, think of how many wars might have been avoided.

Yes, my stance may be unpopular, especially in a devout country like the States, but it's not intolerance. Intolerance is religious people not willing to accept that some people speak out against religious beliefs in and of itself.

 

[user79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer On the whole, it's a fair statement to make that the people going around the communities assisting the elderly, poor, and needy are affiliated with some type of church or another, while those not affiliated with a church or charitable organization are continuing about their own business. [/img]

Well, that's just not true and I don't know why one would think that. There are a lot of NGOs and charity organizations assisting homeless people, elderly care patients and needy who are not affiliated with any religious preference.

The reason why the Church has been so active with helping poor children and persons in the developing world countries, for example, is for missionary purposes. They go there to help, and at the same time gain new followers by preaching. That's a clear perogative for those organizations, their help is not as benign as they try to make it out to be. And, guess what, it works! During the colonization period, the Church was a strong supporter, because it saw the colonization as a way to gain millions of new converters, which would lead to new generations of Christians. And this still goes on today to a degree.

Religious belief is nothing more than indoctrinated brainwash over a lengthy period of time. If I started a new religion today based on a God that manifested itself as a flying green tentacled monster in the sky, and I got enough people to believe in it, built up an institution around it and this went on for generations, people would accepr the Green Tentacled Religion just as much as Christianity or Islam.

Everyone is free to believe what they want and I'm in no way saying religious people are stupid and dumb or whatever, but Christians especially shouldn't be surprised that there has been a new rise in atheists questioning and speaking out against the indoctrination that the Church has spread for thousands of years. And, I might add, I think it's necessary because in many countries, including the States, non-religious people are discriminated against.

Oh and as for Mormons, going door to door trying to convert people is an aggressive act in and of itself. If one of those Mormons came to my door, for sure they would get an ear full from me!

 

[Shimmer]

Way to go.
You just belittled the intelligence and free thought of every single member on this site who has any type of religious belief at all. They've all obviously been brainwashed and are too backwards to know any different.
No one's tried to indoctrinate anyone of any belief, except non belief.

Quote:

veryone is free to believe what they want and I'm in no way saying religious people are stupid and dumb or whatever, but Christians especially shouldn't be surprised that there has been a new rise in atheists questioning and speaking out against the indoctrination that the Church has spread for thousands of years. And, I might add, I think it's necessary because in many countries, including the States, non-religious people are discriminated against.

That's EXACTLY what you just said. They're brainwashed and indoctrinated.
As far as NON-religious people being discriminated against, that's hysterical, particularly in the United States. In the United States, it is becoming increasingly taboo to show Christian beliefs. It's not taboo to show other belief systems (Buddhism, even Muslims are given more quarter than Christians are in many ways) but wearing a cross or saying you church affiliations on Sundays is a damn fine way to (particularly in an 'at will' employment state) lose your job.
I had a company owner that would not allow religious anything to be worn by her employees.
Except the Muslim headscarf. That was okay because it was part of their culture and they have to wear it.
Or a tiny little Wiccan symbol on a charm bracelet. That was okay because it was Wiccan and not Christian.
The Methodist cross? I had to fire the employee wearing it after she was caught by the owner for 'poor performance'. The employee was always on time, in fact early, and was in our top three of sales. But she regularly wore a Methodist Cross.
I wasn't allowed to wear cross earrings, I couldn't wear on my days off that I had to drop by to do inventory by surprise, I had to LEAVE AND BUY A NEW SHIRT if I happened to be wearing one of my old VBS shirts, or anything like that.

But by God don't tell the girl she can't wear her scarf, because that's perfectly okay. She's not Christian.


Quote:

The reason why the Church has been so active with helping poor children and persons in the developing world countries, for example, is for missionary purposes. They go there to help, and at the same time gain new followers by preaching. That's a clear perogative for those organizations, their help is not as benign as they try to make it out to be. And, guess what, it works! During the colonization period, the Church was a strong supporter, because it saw the colonization as a way to gain millions of new converters, which would lead to new generations of Christians. And this still goes on today to a degree.

Guess what! That's not the way those small little churches work anymore! ZOINKS! I know! It's crazy huh?
They're actually just going through the community and helping people because they want to. They don't preach, they don't teach, they don't prosthelityze, they simply help people who need it. Regardless of that person's views, mental capacity, or age. If the person is willing to accept the help, the person receives the help. It's that freaking simple. They're not preachers. They're not standing on their soapbox and condemning people with hellfire and brimstone. They're busting their ass helping people who aren't at a stage in their lives for whatever reason to help themselves.
Oh, and all those nonprofit organizations...they're positively rampant in large towns like the one I live in, or close to areas like Dallas, Austin, Houston, San Antonio, etc. Those places are crawling with non-religious affiliated organizations.
But small towns? Telephone, Bonham, Pottsboro, Durant, Tigertown, Riverby, Trenton, Randolph, Melissa, Honey Grove, Lannius, Allen's Chapel, Savoy, Ector, towns like that? They're not. They don't get those kinds of assistance. So...it's a matter of humanity there. Do the churches simply let the people in need continue to suffer/struggle/do without because by the mere fact that they have a religious belief system they obviously have nothing to offer other than brainwashing and indoctrination, therefore it's worthless and has absolutely no merit whatsoever, or do they help those in need?

I don't even like Mormons, on a general basis, and I believe in being polite as long as they are. Being an ass to them because they're doing what they're REQUIRED TO DO by the people providing them house and board is really awesome. Most of the time those kids are 17-19 years old and thousands of miles away from home. Being mean to them is really gratifying though. They're of religious mind.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissChievous To clarify my statement from before, the thing is that religion does or has done FAR MORE bad things than the "good" things as some have stated. Sure, there are some social aspects that may be good about religion, but I don't think it's necessary to be religious to engage in that. Like checking up on a neighbour when they are ill, how is it relevant that the person is religious or not? Plus, I firmly believe that all the religions based on The Book for example, as well as others, are preaching pure falsehoods that have never been proven to be true, in fact scientific discovery has proved the opposite. So I don't see how it can be condoned as a good thing to continue spreading falsehoods for centuries to keep people under control. Religion has always been used that way. Also, what someone else said about Christianity helping them to be a good person...I'm an atheist but I still have morality and I also try to be a good person. So in a way this argument doesn't really hold up because you can still have morals without being religious. If there was no religion, think of how many wars might have been avoided. Yes, my stance may be unpopular, especially in a devout country like the States, but it's not intolerance. Intolerance is religious people not willing to accept that some people speak out against religious beliefs in and of itself.

By the very definition of your final sentence, your whole post and the subsequent one is intolerant.

 

[Beauty Mark]

I think, when talking about religious people, you have be sure you're not talking about religious extremists. They're totally different.

Two of my most religious friends (one is Jewish, the other is Greek Orthodox) are two of my more tolerant friends. Also, there are some deeply religious people who identify as Unitarian, which is the most liberal/tolerant religion I know; they even accept atheists to their services.

I don't believe religion is the only way to gain morals and values (I certainly didn't gain mine through church), but it's a way. It's like you can learn math in so many different ways, but some ways just click better.

 

[jillianjiggs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Way to go. As far as NON-religious people being discriminated against, that's hysterical, particularly in the United States. In the United States, it is becoming increasingly taboo to show Christian beliefs. It's not taboo to show other belief systems (Buddhism, even Muslims are given more quarter than Christians are in many ways) but wearing a cross or saying you church affiliations on Sundays is a damn fine way to (particularly in an 'at will' employment state) lose your job. I had a company owner that would not allow religious anything to be worn by her employees. Except the Muslim headscarf. That was okay because it was part of their culture and they have to wear it. Or a tiny little Wiccan symbol on a charm bracelet. That was okay because it was Wiccan and not Christian. The Methodist cross? I had to fire the employee wearing it after she was caught by the owner for 'poor performance'. The employee was always on time, in fact early, and was in our top three of sales. But she regularly wore a Methodist Cross. I wasn't allowed to wear cross earrings, I couldn't wear on my days off that I had to drop by to do inventory by surprise, I had to LEAVE AND BUY A NEW SHIRT if I happened to be wearing one of my old VBS shirts, or anything like that.

i have noticed this a lot, too. namely, a professor i have who is openly, openly atheist. frankly, i think he's just anti-catholic. he will somehow incorperate his catholic-disdain into his lectures when it has little to nothing to do with what we're discussing. i have never heard him, nor will i ever expect him, to spew the same hate over judaism, muslim...

obviously, that is only one experience i have. but it does seem more 'okay', and openly politically correct, to hate on the christians

i am not affiliated with any religion, and it's fine if you don't agree with religion, but i think everyone should practice tolerance and respect, whether you agree with what someone believes or not.

 

[Raerae]

It doesn't take religion to be a good person. There are plenty of people in charity/humanitarian/non-profit groups who are equally as helpful. These people don't do those things because of some abstract idea of a God. They do it because it's the right thing to do, and for them, that's enough.

So no, religion itself isn't doing anything good there. It's the type of person that religion attracts thats doing the good deed. If those people weren't part of a church, they would be apart of something else that was fufiling their need to bring kindness and compassion to the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer You've probably never had a church lady who doesn't really know you very well help you out when you really needed it, because there was no one there. Or had to beg for food and clothes for yourself and your children because your husband was laid off and you were laid off two weeks later. Or been unable to make a car payment and facing repossession, so the church helps you catch up and gives you a box or two of food out of the general fund. You've probably never had an elderly relative that you can't check on as much as you would like to because you're working fulltime and you live an hour away, and the church in his area knows this, so the preacher and his wife or a deacon or a deacon's wife or a Bible study teacher pops in every other day and keeps him company while cleaning his house and preparing him a couple of days worth of meals he just has to heat up. Or gone out of town for deployment/a trip/whatever and needed someone to mow your yard, feed your animals, and take in your mail. I know women who make it a point to go around their community and be compassionate, honest, helpful, and charitable to those in need. They don't ask that the person be a member of the church, they don't ask the person to sit and talk religion, or defend their point of views. All they ask is that the person say thank you. No. Religion doesn't do people ANY good AT ALL. This statement is every BIT as closed minded as the religions you say you dislike so much.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae It doesn't take religion to be a good person. There are plenty of people in charity/humanitarian/non-profit groups who are equally as helpful. These people don't do those things because of some abstract idea of a God. They do it because it's the right thing to do, and for them, that's enough. So no, religion itself isn't doing anything good there. It's the type of person that religion attracts thats doing the good deed. If those people weren't part of a church, they would be apart of something else that was fufiling their need to bring kindness and compassion to the world.

I never said there weren't.
And religion attracts all kinds of people, and teaches the incompassionate compassion, the selfish selflessness.

Is it the ONLY mechanism for good and change in the world?
No, it's most certainly is not.
However, it's also the motivation for many. Without motivation, there is no action, regardless of whether the person possesses the traits of compassion, honesty, selflessness, etc.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillianjiggs i have noticed this a lot, too. namely, a professor i have who is openly, openly atheist. frankly, i think he's just anti-catholic. he will somehow incorperate his catholic-disdain into his lectures when it has little to nothing to do with what we're discussing. i have never heard him, nor will i ever expect him, to spew the same hate over judaism, muslim... obviously, that is only one experience i have. but it does seem more 'okay', and openly politically correct, to hate on the christians i am not affiliated with any religion, and it's fine if you don't agree with religion, but i think everyone should practice tolerance and respect, whether you agree with what someone believes or not.

A lot of people seem to believe that atheism is antireligion, and it's not. It's nonbelief in any entity, higher power, or whatever. Atheists don't believe in ANYTHING.
Nonbelievers/unbelievers/Atheists/whatever have been around since religion began, and will be around forever.
That's fine.
I have no problem with atheists, anymore than I have a problem with people of any specific faith.
I do, however, have a problem with people of atheistic leanings slighting the intelligence or conscious decision making of people who DO have faith.

That doesn't make either party wrong. It simply means they don't agree.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by starshapedshard I also wanted to add that it's my opinion that everyone has a religion. It can pertain to a god, but you can also worship sex, science, money, sports, video games, makeup, Starbucks, whatever. So to say you have no religion is bunk in my book.

Just curious... But how do you compare Religion with Starbucks? You might really like your carmel frap with extra whip, but haveing a habit of getting a frap b4 8am isn't Religion. Religion HAS to pertain to a God, power, set of beiefs, whatever (whatever one that is, it could be a frap). It's kinda part of the definition of what Religion, and worship is.

So for Starbucks to be a religion (and who's to tell someone that they can't

worship

their morning frap) that person would have to make a decision to believe in their carmel frap. And at that point, they would have a religion, as they made the choice to believe. But to say that someone who has no religion, suddenly has one, because they can't kick their starbucks habit is a bit absurd.

I enjoy some of the things you listed. But I don't worship any of them or consider them my Religion. As I don't have one.

 

[user79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Atheists don't believe in ANYTHING.

That's not true. Atheists often do have very strong beliefs, or convictions in science and nature. They just don't believe in a higher God.


But anyway, getting back to the discrimination thing, I think it is definitely a factor in the States, probably less in Western Europe. What President, or prominent political person at a high level, have you ever seen openly state that they are an atheist? Sure, some of them may actually be atheists, but are afraid to admit to it because of fear of not getting elected. I highly doubt an open atheist would ever get elected as a US president, at least at the moment. There was a poll done on this some years ago, where people ranked who they were least likely to vote for. Atheists came up top behind gays, blacks, etc. Sorry I don't have the citation for that right on hand, it's in a textbook I used for university.


Oh and, religion is by its nature a form of indoctrination. This isn't meant in a negative way, it's just a term for it.

Quote:

Main Entry: in·doc·tri·nate 1 : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach 2 : to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle

As for the brainwashing part, don't you think it has some relevance, for example with Evangelicals? Like those Bible boot camps for kids, or that creationist museum that opened recently somewhere (I forget where again, somewhere in the States.) I mean, is it right to open a "museum" that teaches people absolute hogwash about how humans came into existence? Isn't that just spreading ignorance?

http://www.creationmuseum.org/




Also, consider for a moment though, that if you were born in another country, and were born into a family of another faith, it's highly likely that you would be another religion. So, if you were born in India, you'd probably be Hindu, if you were born in Israel, probably Jewish, if you were born in Saudi Arabia, you'd be Muslim. So religion is very fickle. How can there be one truth when obviously people everywhere believe in something totally different, and everyone seem to have their own answer for it? And why do we need answers to everything? Humans should just accept that we cannot know the answer to everything, like how the universe came to exist, etc. Especially children who are born into a religious household never really have much choice of what faith they choose to believe in. Sure, there may be a small percentage of persons who grow up in a faithful househould, but then change to another faith, but that case is rather rare. Usually, religion just gets passed on from one generation to the next, and some kids are even afraid to admit to their devout parents that they are atheists.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissChievous That's not true. Atheists often do have very strong beliefs, or convictions in science and nature. They just don't believe in a higher God. But anyway, getting back to the discrimination thing, I think it is definitely a factor in the States, probably less in Western Europe. What President, or prominent political person at a high level, have you ever seen openly state that they are an atheist? Sure, some of them may actually be atheists, but are afraid to admit to it because of fear of not getting elected. I highly doubt an open atheist would ever get elected as a US president, at least at the moment. There was a poll done on this some years ago, where people ranked who they were least likely to vote for. Atheists came up top behind gays, blacks, etc. Sorry I don't have the citation for that right on hand, it's in a textbook I used for university.

That makes sense though. Considering a President is an elected official to represent the people, (though they do a poor job of it at times) it's not unfair or unreasonable to expect that when a fair portion of a nation is religious (ANY religion, not just Christianity), religion is going to play a role in how they vote.


I wouldn't vote for an atheist simply because every atheist I've ever met was a condescending jerk who took it upon him or herself to ridicule and insult the intelligence of people who have spoken their position without being overbearing about it.
People who have faith or religion are brainwashed, manipulated, and too dumb to realize it, according to every atheist I've ever met....therefore since I've got a straight up 100% result in my experiences, I wouldn't be inclined to vote for one.

 

[user79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer That makes sense though. Considering a President is an elected official to represent the people, (though they do a poor job of it at times) it's not unfair or unreasonable to expect that when a fair portion of a nation is religious (ANY religion, not just Christianity), religion is going to play a role in how they vote.

Funny, I thought that the USA was a secular state. So a person's religion or non-religion shouldn't even play a role. I wouldn't not vote for someone just because they are a Christian, yet religious people seem to have a problem voting for someone if they are an atheist. So there's your descrimination right there.


Quote:

I wouldn't vote for an atheist simply because every atheist I've ever met was a condescending jerk who took it upon him or herself to ridicule and insult the intelligence of people who have spoken their position without being overbearing about it. People who have faith or religion are brainwashed, manipulated, and too dumb to realize it, according to every atheist I've ever met....therefore since I've got a straight up 100% result in my experiences, I wouldn't be inclined to vote for one.

Well, I personally find a lot of religious people quite condescending as well. I've had people say, "I can't believe you don't believe in God!" to me with a look that's like, wow you must be from another planet. So the street works both ways.

 

[Shimmer]

It's a representative state.
If I choose you to represent me, it's because you represent the ideals I share.

If you don't represent those ideals, I don't choose you.
*shrug*
I have no problem with that.


It does go both ways, but I didn't see the religious people in this thread belittling atheists. I didn't see them calling them brainwashed or questioning their intelligence either.

 

[user79]

I never belittled anyone's intelligence, in fact I even stated that I don't think religious people are stupid and dumb, so I don't know what you are reading into this exactly.

However, I still believe that things like that creationist museum that I linked up above is brainwash because they are presenting so-called "facts" that have been disproved by science.

 

[Shimmer]

Brainwashing = forcing.

Calling religion and people who have it indoctrinated and brainwashed IS belittling the intelligence of the people who are religious.

It's like saying "No offense, but I think you're ugly."

How can you expect someone to NOT take offense to that?

 

[jillianjiggs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer A lot of people seem to believe that atheism is antireligion, and it's not. It's nonbelief in any entity, higher power, or whatever. Atheists don't believe in ANYTHING. Nonbelievers/unbelievers/Atheists/whatever have been around since religion began, and will be around forever.

i know that technically, atheists are not anti religion.

just that the majority that i have come across, since they believe so strongly in science/facts, that they come off extremely anti-religious and hateful, and deadset on convincing others that what they believe is wrong. like you said in a later post, most of the people i am come in contact with who are atheists do belittle and ridicule those with religious faiths.

 

[starshapedshard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae Just curious... But how do you compare Religion with Starbucks? You might really like your carmel frap with extra whip, but haveing a habit of getting a frap b4 8am isn't Religion. Religion HAS to pertain to a God, power, set of beiefs, whatever (whatever one that is, it could be a frap). It's kinda part of the definition of what Religion, and worship is. So for Starbucks to be a religion (and who's to tell someone that they can't worship their morning frap) that person would have to make a decision to believe in their carmel frap. And at that point, they would have a religion, as they made the choice to believe. But to say that someone who has no religion, suddenly has one, because they can't kick their starbucks habit is a bit absurd. I enjoy some of the things you listed. But I don't worship any of them or consider them my Religion. As I don't have one.

I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. To me, religion means devotion. Can a person not be devoted to any of the things I listed in my previous post? Starbucks in itself my not constitute as a religion, but in combination with other things that you are "bound" to that are not a god, it can be. When I said "worship", I didn't mean someone would actually bow down to something such as a cup of coffee. There are different degrees of worship which is why this thread was started.
The word religion is a vague word and is often consticted. You could look in the dictionary and see where it says "worship of a god", but you can also look in a dictionary and see that in some cases, marriage means a "bind between a man and a woman."

"The word religion is a word of forced application when used with respect to the worship of God." (Thomas Paine)

AND, if someone doesn't have a religion, THAT IS their religion. They're bound to not having a god.

Anyways, there was no ill-feelings felt while typing that!

 

[Shimmer]

Jillian, I wasn't meaning you specifically. I'm sorry it came out that way.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Brainwashing = forcing. Calling religion and people who have it indoctrinated and brainwashed IS belittling the intelligence of the people who are religious. It's like saying "No offense, but I think you're ugly." How can you expect someone to NOT take offense to that?

Eh... That's up to debate.

For many (if not the majority) people who let religion be a major part of their life, it starts at birth. How many children can tell their parents no when it comes to religion? And if it's a lifestyle (for many people in many countries it is) it's even harder, when every where you look in your community, religion is the centerpiece. Children don't have a choice, and when you grow up in a place where everyone believes, it's hard not too. Especially if there are consiquences in your community for non-believers.

Are all people forced into religion? No. Some find it on their own.

Are many? Yes. Especially women, who in many places have little to no choice except to follow their family / husbands.