Split - Barbie: race issues, image issues
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L281173
Well-known member
Quote:
I heard that there is actually a BRATZ doll that curses. That is ridiculous. What are we imparting to the next generation.
Originally Posted by Indigowaters
Off topic: I see alot of people saying that Bratz dolls are trashy but what exactly makes them trashy? Big lips? Cause that's what everyone is trying to achieve these days. Clothes? I see grown women dressed like this. BTW I looked at the site and saw them wearing jeans and cute tops. Maybe this is just because it's the "Fall Collection". I see where everyone else is coming from with the Barbie collection (she achieves everything), but it wasn't until my generation that they finally attempted to make a doll I could identify with (and there weren't alot). I guess this is why I don't identify with either and am not really enthusiastic about this collection. Just MHO. |
I heard that there is actually a BRATZ doll that curses. That is ridiculous. What are we imparting to the next generation.
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
Haha yeh... I'm way to picky about things being absoluteley perfect to ever do stuff like that.
I remember i got a pair of rolerblades for christmas one year, and I fell down, and cried. Not because I got hurt, but because i scratched my new skates... lol...
| Originally Posted by amoona
lmao i loved my barbie to much to hurt her ... u women are vicious haha. |
Haha yeh... I'm way to picky about things being absoluteley perfect to ever do stuff like that.
I remember i got a pair of rolerblades for christmas one year, and I fell down, and cried. Not because I got hurt, but because i scratched my new skates... lol...
MxAxC-_ATTACK
Well-known member
haha no. She was only a doll to me. nothing more.
Beauty Mark
Well-known member
Personally, I didn't have that. She was doll, who as I said, was in my trashy soap opera stories (and probably gay or bi in retrospect, as my Barbies outnumbered my Ken dolls by a long shot, unless Ken was poly.)
I also grew up with a mother who was constantly dieting and struggled with her own weight (she was overweight, though; it wasn't an eating disorder), but she always made sure to let me know that my body was fine and the dangers of being too thin or fat.
To be fair, I was also very skinny growing up. I didn't want breasts, because I thought they'd get in the way, then I became a teenager and wanted them, and then I had them & am mixed on how being busty for my size. I wanted blue eyes, but blue is my favorite color. I never wanted to change the color of my hair, though I had wished it was curly or wavy. I don't think Barbie affected how I feel about myself.
What I think affects kids more is real life representation and how the adults in their lives react to it. If the people in your life are constantly discussing how- Pam Anderson, for instance, is gorgeous and the ideal woman, and you look nothing like her, I think that can affect kid more than Barbie. She may be a product of those ideals, but I don't think she's the culprit at all.
I've already stated my opinion upthread about why it annoys me about race issues and dolls.
I also grew up with a mother who was constantly dieting and struggled with her own weight (she was overweight, though; it wasn't an eating disorder), but she always made sure to let me know that my body was fine and the dangers of being too thin or fat.
To be fair, I was also very skinny growing up. I didn't want breasts, because I thought they'd get in the way, then I became a teenager and wanted them, and then I had them & am mixed on how being busty for my size. I wanted blue eyes, but blue is my favorite color. I never wanted to change the color of my hair, though I had wished it was curly or wavy. I don't think Barbie affected how I feel about myself.
What I think affects kids more is real life representation and how the adults in their lives react to it. If the people in your life are constantly discussing how- Pam Anderson, for instance, is gorgeous and the ideal woman, and you look nothing like her, I think that can affect kid more than Barbie. She may be a product of those ideals, but I don't think she's the culprit at all.
I've already stated my opinion upthread about why it annoys me about race issues and dolls.
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
I was being sarcastic =P
| Originally Posted by quandolak
*sigh* No i dont mean that..how childish trying to put words into peoples mouths. Even if your blonde and booby you never going to be barbies proportions as its a known fact that if she were a real life woman with her proportions she couldnt even stand up. Her body couldnt support it. Thats what i meant. |
I was being sarcastic =P
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
Saw this, and thought of your post, dunno if it's the same doll or not.
Comparison on the Wikipedia: Barbie, when Barbie was outlawed in Saudi Arabia. And the new replacement doll that was more "modest" was introduced.
Question: Coulnd't they have asked Mattel to design more modest clothing, instead of banning that sale?
Edit: I guess this doll is called Fulla.
Edit again: What stopping little girls from making skimpy clothing for the Fulla Doll?
| Originally Posted by amoona
Yea, my aunt was WAY more excited about the doll then my lil cousin was. |
Saw this, and thought of your post, dunno if it's the same doll or not.
Comparison on the Wikipedia: Barbie, when Barbie was outlawed in Saudi Arabia. And the new replacement doll that was more "modest" was introduced.
Question: Coulnd't they have asked Mattel to design more modest clothing, instead of banning that sale?
Edit: I guess this doll is called Fulla.
Edit again: What stopping little girls from making skimpy clothing for the Fulla Doll?
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
Well her waist isn't as small as it was back when we played with Barbies!
"One of the most common criticisms of Barbie is that she promotes an unrealistic idea of body image for a woman, leading to a risk that women who attempt to emulate her will become anorexic. Critics have argued that for a woman to have Barbie's body, she would need to be 7 feet 2 inches tall, weigh 115-130 pounds, have 30 to 36 inch hips, an 18 to 23 inch waist and a 38 to 48 inch bust. Additionally, she would lack the 17 to 22 percent body fat required for a woman to menstruate. In 1997 Barbie was redesigned and given a wider waist, with Mattel saying that this would make the doll better suited to contemporary fashion designs."
I dont think I ever saw Barbie's waist (the first one obviously since I wasn't playing with Barbie is 97 lol) and thought, is that what my waist will look like when I get older? My waist doesn't even look like the one in the 2nd pic lol...
What about magazine, TV, Movies? Do we have to start casting Average people in everything so people can grow up ok with being Average?
Wasn't part of the point of Barbie, is that you could grow up and as a woman, be WHATEVER you wanted too? She's had how many different jobs? Didn't she even go to the moon?
| Originally Posted by quandolak
The question was though are these supposed *urealistic* traits a problem? |
Well her waist isn't as small as it was back when we played with Barbies!
"One of the most common criticisms of Barbie is that she promotes an unrealistic idea of body image for a woman, leading to a risk that women who attempt to emulate her will become anorexic. Critics have argued that for a woman to have Barbie's body, she would need to be 7 feet 2 inches tall, weigh 115-130 pounds, have 30 to 36 inch hips, an 18 to 23 inch waist and a 38 to 48 inch bust. Additionally, she would lack the 17 to 22 percent body fat required for a woman to menstruate. In 1997 Barbie was redesigned and given a wider waist, with Mattel saying that this would make the doll better suited to contemporary fashion designs."
I dont think I ever saw Barbie's waist (the first one obviously since I wasn't playing with Barbie is 97 lol) and thought, is that what my waist will look like when I get older? My waist doesn't even look like the one in the 2nd pic lol...
What about magazine, TV, Movies? Do we have to start casting Average people in everything so people can grow up ok with being Average?
Wasn't part of the point of Barbie, is that you could grow up and as a woman, be WHATEVER you wanted too? She's had how many different jobs? Didn't she even go to the moon?
Raerae
Well-known member
From that site:
Razanne : The Muslim Doll
The perfect gift for all Muslim girls!
New Modest Figure!
New Beautiful, Brushable Hair! New Islamic Fashions and Accessories!
lol...
New modest figure? What exactly does that mean? Is she like devoid of secondary sex traits?
At what point does being modest = being ashamed? I'm curious from an American point of view. I know we have a pew posters who in the FoTD can only show their eyes etc.
Razanne : The Muslim Doll
The perfect gift for all Muslim girls!
New Modest Figure!
New Beautiful, Brushable Hair! New Islamic Fashions and Accessories!
lol...
New modest figure? What exactly does that mean? Is she like devoid of secondary sex traits?
At what point does being modest = being ashamed? I'm curious from an American point of view. I know we have a pew posters who in the FoTD can only show their eyes etc.
Raerae
Well-known member
Muslim doll offers modest alternative to Barbie
Wednesday, October 8, 2003 Posted: 1:02 PM EDT (1702 GMT)
Jenna Debryn shows off a Razanne doll at her home in West Bloomfield Township, Michigan.
RELATED
• Saudi police say Barbie dolls a threat to morality
LIVONIA, Michigan (AP) -- At first glance, this new girl on the block doesn't give Barbie much of a run for her money. After all, Barbie is everything Razanne is not -- curvaceous, flashy and loaded with sex appeal.
But that's exactly why many Muslim Americans prefer Razanne, with her long-sleeved dresses, head scarf and, by her creator Ammar Saadeh's own admission, a not-so-buxom bustline.
For Saadeh, the doll not only fills a marketing void but also offers Muslim girls someone they can relate to.
"The main message we try to put forward through the doll is that what matters is what's inside you, not how you look," said Saadeh, who set up NoorArt Inc. with his wife and a few other investors.
The Livonia-based company, founded about seven years ago, sells the Razanne doll and a number of other toys geared toward Muslim children.
"It doesn't matter if you're tall or short, thin or fat, beautiful or not, the real beauty seen by God and fellow Muslims is what's in your soul," he said.
Razanne has the body of a preteen. The doll comes in three types: fair-skinned blonde, olive-skinned with black hair, or black skin and black hair.
Her aspirations are those of a modern Muslim woman. On the drawing board for future dolls are Dr. Razanne and possibly even Astronaut Razanne. There's also Muslim Girl Scout Razanne, complete with a cassette recording of the Muslim Scout's oath.
What sets Razanne apart from her few competitors is that she "holds a global appeal for Muslim girls," Saadeh said. That image encouraged Mimo Debryn, of West Bloomfield Township, to buy the doll for her daughter, Jenna, four years ago.
"Razanne looks like the majority of women around Jenna," said Debryn. "She loves that doll and always took care of her, giving Razanne a special place in her room, treating her with respect.
"Jenna never tried to take Razanne's hijab (head scarf) off, though Barbie was usually stripped naked," she said as her daughter, 11, curled up on the couch and smiled.
Global appeal
In the United States, Mattel, which makes Barbie, markets a Moroccan Barbie and sells a collector's doll named Leyla. Leyla's elaborate costume and tale of being taken as a slave in the court of a Turkish sultan are intended to convey the tribulations of one Muslim girl in the 1720s.
"It's no surprise that they'd try to portray a Middle Eastern Barbie either as a belly dancer or a concubine," said Saadeh, adding that countering such stereotypes was one of his main aims in developing Razanne.
Mattel didn't respond to repeated calls seeking comment.
Razanne represents to Muslim girls that they have options, goals and dreams and the ability to realize them.
-- Mimo Debryn, mother
Laila, the Arab League's answer to Barbie, offered girls of the league's 22-member states a culturally acceptable alternative to Barbie's flashy lifestyle. But she never made it to store shelves. Sara and Dara were launched a couple of years ago -- Iran's version of Barbie and her beau, Ken. The two were offshoots of a children's cartoon in Iran.
But Saadeh said those dolls are more "cultural and don't have mass appeal in the Middle East."
Saadeh hopes to capture that market. Razanne will soon be marketed in Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates and make greater inroads in southeast Asia.
The doll is sold throughout the United States, Canada, Singapore and Germany. Saadeh would not reveal the doll's sales figures, but he said retail sales over the company's Web site account for a majority of the almost 30,000 dolls sold per year.
Prices range from $9.99 for a single doll to $24.99 for a set like Teacher Razanne that includes a briefcase and other accessories.
Saudi Arabia's religious police recently declared Barbie dolls a threat to morality, complaining that the revealing clothes are offensive to Islam.
Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries likely would be attracted to Praying Razanne, who comes complete with a long hijab and modest prayer gown.
Lest people think that she's all about praying, there's In-Out Razanne, whose wardrobe also includes a short, flowery dress she can wear inside the home, in view only of men in her family.
"Razanne represents to Muslim girls that they have options, goals and dreams and the ability to realize them," said Debryn.
Jenna, who recently donned the veil after much soul-searching, said Razanne makes her "feel more comfortable about being a Muslim girl."
Interesting stuff. Amazing what you can learn about a culture, from it's dolls.
Wednesday, October 8, 2003 Posted: 1:02 PM EDT (1702 GMT)
Jenna Debryn shows off a Razanne doll at her home in West Bloomfield Township, Michigan.
RELATED
• Saudi police say Barbie dolls a threat to morality
LIVONIA, Michigan (AP) -- At first glance, this new girl on the block doesn't give Barbie much of a run for her money. After all, Barbie is everything Razanne is not -- curvaceous, flashy and loaded with sex appeal.
But that's exactly why many Muslim Americans prefer Razanne, with her long-sleeved dresses, head scarf and, by her creator Ammar Saadeh's own admission, a not-so-buxom bustline.
For Saadeh, the doll not only fills a marketing void but also offers Muslim girls someone they can relate to.
"The main message we try to put forward through the doll is that what matters is what's inside you, not how you look," said Saadeh, who set up NoorArt Inc. with his wife and a few other investors.
The Livonia-based company, founded about seven years ago, sells the Razanne doll and a number of other toys geared toward Muslim children.
"It doesn't matter if you're tall or short, thin or fat, beautiful or not, the real beauty seen by God and fellow Muslims is what's in your soul," he said.
Razanne has the body of a preteen. The doll comes in three types: fair-skinned blonde, olive-skinned with black hair, or black skin and black hair.
Her aspirations are those of a modern Muslim woman. On the drawing board for future dolls are Dr. Razanne and possibly even Astronaut Razanne. There's also Muslim Girl Scout Razanne, complete with a cassette recording of the Muslim Scout's oath.
What sets Razanne apart from her few competitors is that she "holds a global appeal for Muslim girls," Saadeh said. That image encouraged Mimo Debryn, of West Bloomfield Township, to buy the doll for her daughter, Jenna, four years ago.
"Razanne looks like the majority of women around Jenna," said Debryn. "She loves that doll and always took care of her, giving Razanne a special place in her room, treating her with respect.
"Jenna never tried to take Razanne's hijab (head scarf) off, though Barbie was usually stripped naked," she said as her daughter, 11, curled up on the couch and smiled.
Global appeal
In the United States, Mattel, which makes Barbie, markets a Moroccan Barbie and sells a collector's doll named Leyla. Leyla's elaborate costume and tale of being taken as a slave in the court of a Turkish sultan are intended to convey the tribulations of one Muslim girl in the 1720s.
"It's no surprise that they'd try to portray a Middle Eastern Barbie either as a belly dancer or a concubine," said Saadeh, adding that countering such stereotypes was one of his main aims in developing Razanne.
Mattel didn't respond to repeated calls seeking comment.
Razanne represents to Muslim girls that they have options, goals and dreams and the ability to realize them.
-- Mimo Debryn, mother
Laila, the Arab League's answer to Barbie, offered girls of the league's 22-member states a culturally acceptable alternative to Barbie's flashy lifestyle. But she never made it to store shelves. Sara and Dara were launched a couple of years ago -- Iran's version of Barbie and her beau, Ken. The two were offshoots of a children's cartoon in Iran.
But Saadeh said those dolls are more "cultural and don't have mass appeal in the Middle East."
Saadeh hopes to capture that market. Razanne will soon be marketed in Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates and make greater inroads in southeast Asia.
The doll is sold throughout the United States, Canada, Singapore and Germany. Saadeh would not reveal the doll's sales figures, but he said retail sales over the company's Web site account for a majority of the almost 30,000 dolls sold per year.
Prices range from $9.99 for a single doll to $24.99 for a set like Teacher Razanne that includes a briefcase and other accessories.
Saudi Arabia's religious police recently declared Barbie dolls a threat to morality, complaining that the revealing clothes are offensive to Islam.
Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries likely would be attracted to Praying Razanne, who comes complete with a long hijab and modest prayer gown.
Lest people think that she's all about praying, there's In-Out Razanne, whose wardrobe also includes a short, flowery dress she can wear inside the home, in view only of men in her family.
"Razanne represents to Muslim girls that they have options, goals and dreams and the ability to realize them," said Debryn.
Jenna, who recently donned the veil after much soul-searching, said Razanne makes her "feel more comfortable about being a Muslim girl."
Interesting stuff. Amazing what you can learn about a culture, from it's dolls.
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
Yeh, i think thats kinda interesting how they have to put the ethnicity on a lot of dolls. So you know for a fack the doll is this, or that.
| Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
I don't think it's extreme. Most companies create 4-5 of x to represent race. If they're unlabeled and categorized, who's going to know they forgot one ethnic group? Barbie, no matter what color she is, has the Barbie face. |
Yeh, i think thats kinda interesting how they have to put the ethnicity on a lot of dolls. So you know for a fack the doll is this, or that.
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
This is actually incorrect... While same headmolds have been shared in the past, it's not always the case.
From: http://kattisdolls.net/faces/christie.htm
"Christie, Barbie's first black friend.
In 1968 Christie made her appearance among the friends of Barbie, and this black girl is the one that has been around longest of them all. Some years earlier another colored girl was on the shelves, but somehow she didn't response to well - as we all regret today. Colored Francie shared the same head- and bodymold as her white counterpart and was withdrawn after a couple of years.Insead Mattel gave out a new friend with the same body mold as Barbie so they could share wardrobe, to add more fun to the play. Christie's original headmold has the copyright year 1965 marked so that is actually before Colored Francie hit the shelves!"
Christie's original headmold is marked 1965
This is a very black Malibu Christie in a non-Barbie(?) outfit.
The Midge headmold was used for Live Action Christie in 1971-73, with long rooted eyelashes.
Markings on the head are 1958.
Here she has lost her headband but later found a new one.
Both of those head molds look very correct ethnically from my standpoint.
In 1977 Barbie was all new and so was Christie since they shared facemold.
Superstar Christie
Head markings 1976
Kissing Christie from 1978 share the same strange headmold as Kissing Barbie.
Head markings 1978.
Thats just the black ones (and just a few) since they were on the first page. If your interested in the Ethnic History of barbie's friends, thats a pretty neat site, as they have all the head-molds from all the different ethnic groups released over the years.
Edit: lol looks like they blocked the links to the pics, you'll have to click there yourself!
| Back to barbie she is generally just given a different colour. Like you will see the african american doll look exactly the same as the white one apart from the skin. They dont put any extra distinct features for the various ethnicities. Although like i said im not fussed barbie is mainly a blond haired caucasian(sp) featured doll...it doesnt bother me. |
This is actually incorrect... While same headmolds have been shared in the past, it's not always the case.
From: http://kattisdolls.net/faces/christie.htm
"Christie, Barbie's first black friend.
In 1968 Christie made her appearance among the friends of Barbie, and this black girl is the one that has been around longest of them all. Some years earlier another colored girl was on the shelves, but somehow she didn't response to well - as we all regret today. Colored Francie shared the same head- and bodymold as her white counterpart and was withdrawn after a couple of years.Insead Mattel gave out a new friend with the same body mold as Barbie so they could share wardrobe, to add more fun to the play. Christie's original headmold has the copyright year 1965 marked so that is actually before Colored Francie hit the shelves!"
Christie's original headmold is marked 1965
This is a very black Malibu Christie in a non-Barbie(?) outfit.
The Midge headmold was used for Live Action Christie in 1971-73, with long rooted eyelashes.
Markings on the head are 1958.
Here she has lost her headband but later found a new one.
Both of those head molds look very correct ethnically from my standpoint.
In 1977 Barbie was all new and so was Christie since they shared facemold.
Superstar Christie
Head markings 1976
Kissing Christie from 1978 share the same strange headmold as Kissing Barbie.
Head markings 1978.
Thats just the black ones (and just a few) since they were on the first page. If your interested in the Ethnic History of barbie's friends, thats a pretty neat site, as they have all the head-molds from all the different ethnic groups released over the years.
Edit: lol looks like they blocked the links to the pics, you'll have to click there yourself!
MxAxC-_ATTACK
Well-known member
Damn!! how come I didnt have 80s hair ken!!
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
I think you totally mis-understood me. Lemme clarify.
From the other article on the Razanne doll...
"Razanne has the body of a preteen. The doll comes in three types: fair-skinned blonde, olive-skinned with black hair, or black skin and black hair. "
Perhaps embarassed was too strong a word I dunno. People are really touchy on this board lateley. Anyways.
From your own post on Barbie, "Did *unrealistic* barbie affect you in any way..self esteem etc?"
What about the Razanne doll (I'm sure other Muslim dolls are similar however I culd be wrong). Does her unrealistic body, AKA Body of a pre-teen on an adult, send the same type of message to Muslim girls, once they get older and start developing? And no longer have a pre-teen body? That secondary female sex characteristics are something undesireable, and should be hidden under modest clothing?
Thats what I was asking. I wasn't attacking anyone's choice to wear a style of clothing.
| Originally Posted by quandolak
Raerae that modesty thing is a whole different subject and that many here will just see as an attack and not an enchancement of their freedom. |
I think you totally mis-understood me. Lemme clarify.
From the other article on the Razanne doll...
"Razanne has the body of a preteen. The doll comes in three types: fair-skinned blonde, olive-skinned with black hair, or black skin and black hair. "
Perhaps embarassed was too strong a word I dunno. People are really touchy on this board lateley. Anyways.
From your own post on Barbie, "Did *unrealistic* barbie affect you in any way..self esteem etc?"
What about the Razanne doll (I'm sure other Muslim dolls are similar however I culd be wrong). Does her unrealistic body, AKA Body of a pre-teen on an adult, send the same type of message to Muslim girls, once they get older and start developing? And no longer have a pre-teen body? That secondary female sex characteristics are something undesireable, and should be hidden under modest clothing?
Thats what I was asking. I wasn't attacking anyone's choice to wear a style of clothing.
