2008 Presidential Candidates Comparison ( Side By side)... DOn't know what to think.

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florabundance

Well-known member
I posted this article once before in another McCain/Obama thread and it is long but I stress for those interested in the election to read it. It is very insightful!!!

"It is a vintage John McCain performance. Standing in a light-filled atrium at the University of Denver, McCain is espousing his vision for America's future relations with the world. He hits all the right notes, citing liberal icon John F Kennedy and conservative hero Ronald Reagan. He strikes a muscular tone against America's enemies, yet tempers it with restraint. He speaks of a 'common vision' among nations. 'I want us to rise to the challenges of our time, as generations before us rose to theirs,' he says. He addresses the audience as 'my friends' and promises a safer, more reasonable world. 'It still remains within our power to make in our time another, better world than we inherited,' he concludes. As the crowd applaud, McCain plunges into the throng to pump hands and sign autographs.

Welcome to the John McCain show 2008. It's powerful stuff, portraying McCain as the decent patriot of the middle ground and a steady hand for difficult times. For a lot of Americans - including many Democrats - it is a beguiling vision. They see a war hero whose courage was forged in a North Vietnamese POW camp. They see a maverick who spoke against the tortures of Abu Ghraib. They see a reformer who acts against lobbyists and political favours. They see a politician who has spent a lifetime serving his country and won a place in the hearts of the nation.

Now McCain is also trying to win the White House. He has taken his campaign to places far from the projected Republican road map to victory. He has spoken in the 'black belt' of rural Alabama. He has toured Appalachian coal country to talk about poverty. He has gone to the hippy enclave of Oregon to lecture on global warming. In short, he is a Republican that even liberals can love. And many do. McCain's appeal to America's vital middle ground could easily propel him to the Oval Office.

But there is another, very different side to John McCain. Away from the headlines and the stirring speeches, a less familiar figure lurks. It is a McCain who plans to fight on in Iraq for years to come and who might launch military action against Iran. This is the McCain whose campaign and career has been riddled with lobbyists and special interests. It is a McCain who has sided with religious and political extremists who believe Islam is evil and gays are immoral. It is a McCain who wants to appoint extreme conservatives to the Supreme Court and see abortion banned. This McCain has a notoriously volatile temper that has scared some senior members of his own party. If McCain becomes the most powerful man in the world it would be wise to know what lies behind his public mask, to look at the dark side of John McCain.

John McCain is an American hero in an age of war and terrorism. As young Americans return in bodybags from Iraq and Iranian mullahs cook up uranium, an old soldier like McCain seems a natural choice in a dangerous world. He is the son and grandson of warriors. Both his father and grandfather were four-star admirals. He was even born on a military base, on 29 August 1936, in Panama. And his life story reads like a movie script. The young, rascally McCain, nicknamed 'McNasty' by his classmates, attended the elite West Point military academy. He became a navy pilot, long before Tom Cruise made 'Top Guns' famous, and began his first combat duty in Vietnam in 1966, carrying out countless missions. Then came disaster. He was shot down and held prisoner for five years by brutal North Vietnamese captors. In his stiff gait and damaged arms, he still bears the scars of their tortures. His CV for the White House is written in his suffering as much as in his career as a senator.

That military legacy has made John McCain a legend. But it has not turned him into a peacemaker, at a time when most Americans desperately want the war to end. Anyone hoping for a new president who will quickly bring America's troops home from Iraq had better look elsewhere. McCain has always supported the invasion of Iraq and he wants to support it until at least 2013, or perhaps for many years beyond. He believes withdrawal would be a surrender to terrorists.

That warlike spirit was on full display in Denver when McCain's speech was interrupted repeatedly by anti-war protesters. They stood up, unfurling banners and shouting for a withdrawal from Iraq. When it happened a third time, McCain had had enough. In a voice suddenly filled with steely resolve, McCain broke from his carefully scripted speech and gripped the lectern. He looked out at the audience and spoke slowly. 'I will never surrender in Iraq,' he rasped. 'Our American troops will come home with victory and with honour.' The crowd cheered and chanted: 'John McCain! John McCain!' It was a perfect moment for unrepentant supporters of the Iraq invasion and a McCain who still smarts from defeat in Vietnam. No retreat. No surrender. This time America will win.

McCain believes in projecting American military power abroad. So it is no wonder that the neoconservatives who pushed for war in Iraq have now regrouped around him. McCain's main foreign policy adviser is Randy Scheunemann, who was executive director of the shadowy Committee for the Liberation of Iraq. Other leading neocons on board include John Bolton, America's belligerent former UN ambassador, Bill Kristol, editor of the Neocon bible the Weekly Standard, and Max Boot, who has pushed for a US version of the old British Colonial Office. Another close McCain adviser is former CIA director James Woolsey, who has openly advocated bombing Syria.
Such a group of warlike counsellors has raised fears that McCain may strike Iran to stop its suspected quest for a nuclear weapon, triggering a fresh war in the Middle East. The Republican candidate has openly joked about bombing Tehran. It was just over a year ago, in the tiny borough of Murrells Inlet in South Carolina, and McCain faced a small crowd in one of his characteristic town hall meetings. As McCain stood on the stage, one man asked him about the 'real problem' in the Middle East. 'When are we going to send an airmail message to Tehran?' the man pleaded. McCain laughed and - to the tune of the Beach Boys' classic 'Barbara Ann' - began to sing: 'Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran.' But some think McCain's joke may well become policy. 'I think a McCain presidency would be very likely to strike Iran,' says Cliff Schecter, author of a new book, The Real McCain, McCain is still most at home with soldiers. Earlier this year I watched him on the stump in Charleston, South Carolina. He chose to speak at the Citadel, an elite military college, where old tanks and retired rockets dotted the lawns and squads of young recruits jogged around its quads. At the small rally McCain was relaxed and at home and the crowd loved him: here was their war hero made flesh. Here was a man unafraid to strike first.

John McCain's second bid for the presidency has been a long time coming. After being beaten by Bush in 2000, the Senator from Arizona has returned to the fray more determined than ever. And central to his success has been his media strategy.

Three years ago I followed McCain to a fund-raising dinner in Hartford, Connecticut, a wealthy city of insurers and bankers. McCain spoke at a private club downtown, giving an early version of his stump speech and already being introduced as the next president of the United States. He gave an impromptu press conference, bantering gamely with reporters. When that was done, aides tried to drag him away, but McCain raced across the room and sought out a local reporter to clarify an answer he had given. The journalist, unused to such personal attention from a potential president, looked like a spellbound deer in the headlights as McCain spoke to him for a further 10 minutes. The fact is, McCain loves journalists and they love him back. That is how the myth of the moderate maverick - the most powerful tool in his political armoury - has come to be.

Nothing has changed since that moment in Hartford. McCain's campaign bus - dubbed the Straight Talk Express, just as it was in 2000 - is filled with journalists who travel at the back with McCain, relaxing on a U-shaped couch. McCain recently hosted a barbecue for journalists at his Arizona ranch. As TV anchors and newspaper reporters sipped beer and cocktails under a desert sun, McCain stood at the grill and literally served up their daily nourishment. He is someone you could have a beer with, in stark contrast to Barack Obama, who keeps his press entourage firmly at arm's length. Yet McCain's riskier strategy has worked like a dream. Reporters often overlook McCain's errors and flaps - especially in national security - clinging instead to the narrative of an unconventional patriot. 'The media love him, especially his war record. He is the GI Joe doll they played with as kids,' says Professor Shawn Bowler, a political scientist at the University of California at Riverside.

There is also a little-reported back-up plan for reporters who do not toe the line: sheer aggression. A recent Washington Post piece on a land deal by one of McCain's allies prompted a brutal response from the McCain campaign. Without disproving facts, they labelled the story 'shameful' and a 'smear job'. When Newsweek ran a story on the Obama camp's perception of McCain's weak spots, McCain's team struck again. This time the story was 'offensive' and 'scurrilous'. The campaign is willing to strike out abroad, recently persuading one European newspaper editor to scrap a review of Schecter's book. For the fact is, McCain's benevolent public image is no accident. It has been carefully crafted and is forcefully policed. 'This has gone on for years. This is an image he has worked very hard to maintain,' says Professor Seth Masket of the University of Denver.

John McCain has not always had his own way. His current reformist image was born from a career-threatening scandal that almost saw his political ambitions strangled at birth. It was 1987, and John McCain was a promising newcomer in the Republican party, still finding his feet in a world very different from his military life. Charlie Keating, a wealthy businessman, was a long-time friend and financial contributor to McCain's campaigns. When Keating was caught up in the disastrous collapse of the Lincoln Savings and Loan Association, he turned to his political friends, asking them to talk to federal regulators. McCain, along with four others, made the mistake of doing just that. When a massive government bailout of Lincoln followed, so too did public outrage. It almost destroyed McCain's career. Yet the Keating Five scandal also gave birth to a new John McCain: the reformer. In an astonishing transformation he now became the arch-champion of campaign finance reform.

Yet much of the dark side of John McCain lies behind the closed doors of K Street, a Washington DC boulevard lined with glitzy buildings and home to the capital's booming lobbyist industry. A close examination of McCain's campaign workers, political allies and backers reveals a dense world of dubious loyalties, uber-lobbyists and powerful corporate interests. McCain is very much at home with K Street's sharp-suited denizens, their wealthy clients and their art of influence-peddling.

Take one of McCain's closest aides and senior counsel, Charlie Black. For decades he worked as one of the most powerful lobbyists in Washington DC. His firm represented some of the most unpleasant dictators in modern history, among them the Philippines' Ferdinand Marcos and Zaire's kleptomaniac president Joseph Mobutu. Then there's Rick Davis, McCain's campaign manager, the man leading the effort to capture the White House. Davis, too, has been a top lobbyist. His firm's clients ranged from Ukrainian billionaire Rinat Akhmetov to telecoms giants such as Comsat and Verizon.

But Black and Davis are far from alone. McCain's staff was so riddled with lobbyists that at least four have resigned because of their contacts and businesses. They included Doug Goodyear, McCain's convention chairman, whose company was paid to improve the image of Burma's brutal dictatorship.

The make-up of McCain's team has set alarm bells ringing among Washington's campaign watchdogs. 'We need to know who is advising the candidates and why,' says Josh Israel, a lobbyist investigator at the Centre for Public Integrity (CPI). 'Rather than advising them based on what is good for the candidate or the country, are they instead looking for their other interests?' McCain's campaign has even had to bring in special rules to cut down on the number of lobbyists on his team.

Nor is it just campaign workers who have extensive links to the lobbying industry. McCain's financial backers do, too. A recent survey of 106 elite fundraisers for McCain revealed that one in six were lobbyists. Watchdog groups such as the CPI believe McCain has a long history of helping people who also happen to be his wealthy backers, including several large landowners in Arizona, Nevada and California who have profited from McCain-linked property deals. 'McCain has a long way to go to line up his reformist image with the actual reality,' Israel says. Sceptics might conclude that McCain's post-Keating career represents a cosmetic makeover, not a true conversion.

John McCain is level with Barack Obama in the polls in a year when Democrats should be a certainty. He is even winning in key swing states like Florida. His appeal to America's middle ground remains strong. These are people like self-confessed moderate Keith Gregory, 24, who filed out of the Denver auditorium as a convert. The young student, dressed in a freshly pressed suit and tie, had been deeply impressed by McCain's speech. 'I like him more than before,' Gregory said. 'He talked very sensibly and openly about the issues.' This is McCain's great strength and also one of his greatest myths. Few see McCain as an ideological warrior in America's culture wars. Unlike Bush, he is not a born-again Christian. In McCain's inner circle - unlike Bush's - there are no group prayer meetings. Yet the reality is that McCain is a social conservative who has actively sought out the far right of his party and forged alliances with Christian extremists.

Just look at McCain's 'pastor problems'. He has enthusiastically sought the political blessing of some of the most conservative religious figures in the country. McCain gave the 2006 commencement address at Falwell's Liberty University, a college that has taught creationism alongside science. McCain also courted and won the endorsement of Texan preacher John Hagee, despite Hagee blaming Hurricane Katrina on New Orleans's liberal attitude towards gays. Hagee believes the disaster was God's judgement on the sinful city. Another McCain-backer, Ohio preacher Rod Parsley, has spouted hate about Muslims. Parsley, whom McCain called a 'spiritual guide', believes America was founded partly in order to destroy Islam. He has called Mohammed a 'mouthpiece of a conspiracy of spiritual evil' and has supported prosecuting people who commit adultery. Though McCain later repudiated the endorsements of Parsley and Hagee, he did so only after bad headlines threatened his moderate image. Most of Hagee's and Parsley's views were widely known from public speeches or books. It was not their bigotry that caught the campaign out, it was the reporting of it. 'McCain has had links with these religious figures who are just way, way out of the mainstream,' says Cliff Schecter.

There are other nasties, too. McCain is friends with G Gordon Liddy, one of the Watergate burglars. Liddy, who once plotted to kill a left-wing journalist, has hosted a fundraiser with McCain in his own home. McCain also endorsed and campaigned for Alabama politician George Wallace Jr in 2005, despite Wallace's links to racist groups. Wallace has praised and spoken at meetings of the Council of Conservative Citizens, a white-power group that opposes inter-racial marriage and promotes white racial purity. If a moderate voter were seeking to judge a politician by the company he keeps, then McCain keeps some very odd company indeed.

But it is not really that strange. McCain himself holds deeply conservative views, including proposing teaching the creationist idea of Intelligent Design in schools alongside evolution. McCain has also always been anti-abortion. He believes the landmark Roe vs Wade ruling that legalised abortion was a bad decision. McCain has vowed to continue the Bush policy of appointing extreme conservatives to the Supreme Court and many fear a McCain presidency will see Roe vs Wade overturned. 'McCain is neither moderate nor a maverick when it comes to a woman's right to choose. He's just plain wrong,' said Nancy Keenan, president of abortion rights group Naral.
On the environment, too, McCain is not the green warrior some might think. He has voted against tightening fuel efficiency standards for American cars. The League of Conservation Voters gives McCain an environmental rating of 24 per cent; Obama gets 86 per cent. 'His rhetoric does not match his voting record on this issue,' says David Sandretti, a director of the League. 'McCain is better than Bush, but that's not much of a yardstick, because the current
president is abysmal.'

But it is not just McCain's politics that are disturbing. It is his personality, too. For McCain has a secret reputation as a man with a ferocious, unpredictable temper. He is a man who has a knack for pursuing vendettas against those he thinks have slighted him, even if they are lowly aides.
The list of worrying incidents is long. In 1995 he ended up almost physically scuffling with aged Senator Strom Thurmond on the Senate floor. And, according to some accounts, in 2006 he had a fight with Arizona congressman Rick Renzi, throwing blows in a scrap whose details have only recently been detailed in Schecter's book. Schecter unearthed another unpleasant incident from 1992 in which McCain, tired after a long day's campaign, reacted badly to his wife Cindy teasing him about his baldness. 'At least I don't plaster on the make-up like a trollop, you cunt,' McCain snapped in front of eyewitnesses. Schecter says he has three sources for the story. McCain's campaign have denied it.

Such public outbursts, and many other private ones, have concerned people even in his own party. Former New Hampshire Republican Senator Robert Smith publicly voiced his concerns, once saying McCain's temper ' ... would place this country at risk in international affairs, and the world perhaps in danger'. That sentiment was echoed by Mississippi Republican Senator Thad Cochran, who told a Boston newspaper: 'The thought of his being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He is erratic. He is hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me.'

Yet McCain is still campaigning successfully as the lovable, maverick patriot. It is a strategy his staff believe will win the White House. So the tricks and stunts keep on coming.

A few weeks ago a letter was delivered to Barack Obama's Chicago campaign headquarters. It was from McCain and in gracious language it offered to hold weekly 'town hall' meetings across America where he and Obama would appear side by side. It would be a far cry from the rancorous circus of televised debates. The audience would be neutral independents. The questions would be random. It would summon back a golden age of gentlemanly politics. 'I also suggest we fly together to the first town hall meeting as a symbolically important act embracing the politics of civility,' McCain wrote.

Like the Denver speech, it was a vintage McCain ploy: superbly geared to his everyman image of decency. But the true McCain is far different. His dark side is real and Democrats will need to expose it if America is to avoid a third successive term of extreme conservative government. Now Democrat activists are pushing out their argument that McCain is a conservative wolf in a moderate sheep's clothing. They are highlighting the temper, the pro-war ideology and the links to lobbyists. 'We think he just means four more years of Bush,' says Karen Finney, a director at the Democratic National Committee. Finney's job is to convince Americans they have got McCain wrong, that they have been fooled. She and her fellow activists have less than four months to succeed. But for now, as America gears up to one of the most important elections in its history, McCain's dark side remains largely hidden behind closed doors"
 

mittens

Active member
Even if I don't agree w/ everything in the Obama platform, the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT reason why I will NEVER vote for McCain is b/c of the upcoming nominations to the Supreme Court. After the Alito and Robertson appointments, the Court has tilted far right.

McCain won't appoint judges that merely "interpret" laws. This is just a guise under which there is activism (of a different sort) in the Court. Also, McCain is not a lawyer and he is not a savant of Constitutional Law. I would never trust someone with so sparse a legal background to have control over nominations that when appointed serve LIFE TERMS.

This is the only reason why I'm voting for Obama--who is a lawyer and was a Constitutional Law professor at U Chicago Law. I can trust him to make responsible nominations that will balance the Court more.

Lol, ok, back to makeup.
 

*Stargazer*

Well-known member
What's the source for this? The fact checking sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by florabundance
I posted this article once before in another McCain/Obama thread and it is long but I stress for those interested in the election to read it. It is very insightful!!!
...

Both his father and grandfather were four-star admirals. He was even born on a military base, on 29 August 1936, in Panama. And his life story reads like a movie script. The young, rascally McCain, nicknamed 'McNasty' by his classmates, attended the elite West Point military academy. He became a navy pilot, long before Tom Cruise made 'Top Guns' famous, and began his first combat duty in Vietnam in 1966, carrying out countless missions. Then came disaster. He was shot down and held prisoner for five years by brutal North Vietnamese captors. In his stiff gait and damaged arms, he still bears the scars of their tortures. His CV for the White House is written in his suffering as much as in his career as a senator.


Yeah, John McCain didn't go to West Point.
 

purrtykitty

Well-known member
Just because Obama taught Con Law doesn't necessarily make him a "savant of Con Law" or any more able to pick Supreme Court candidates. And for those that don't know - there's shockingly little that goes into teaching a Con Law class. It's really more of a brief history of US law and an opportunity for the professor to push his/her ideals upon the student.

A president is always going to push a candidate that mirrors his/her agenda - regardless of which side of the aisle they're one. If the Dems continue to control the Senate, do you really think they'll approve the nomination of any candidate that insists upon "making" law rather than "interpreting' it? Doubt it - that's the beauty of the Checks and Balances system.
 

PuterChick

Well-known member
If you are a woman, please read the below about McCain:

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html]

McCain likes to illustrate his moral fiber by referring to his five years as a prisoner-of-war in Vietnam.
And to demonstrate his commitment to family values, the 71-year-old former
US Navy pilot pays warm tribute to his beautiful blonde wife, Cindy, with
whom he has four children.

But there is another Mrs McCain who casts a ghostly shadow over the Senator's presidential campaign. She is seldom seen and rarely written about, despite being mother to McCain's three eldest children....

[W]hen McCain returned to America in 1973 to a fanfare
of publicity and a handshake from Richard Nixon, he discovered his wife had
been disfigured in a terrible car crash three years earlier. Her car had
skidded on icy roads into a telegraph pole on Christmas Eve, 1969. Her
pelvis and one arm were shattered by the impact and she suffered massive
internal injuries.

When Carol was discharged from hospital after six months of life-saving surgery, the prognosis was bleak. In order to save her legs, surgeons had been forced to cut away huge sections of shattered bone,taking with it her tall, willowy figure. She was confined to a wheelchair and was forced to use a catheter.

Through sheer hard work, Carol learned to walk again. But when John McCain came home from Vietnam, she had gained a lot of weight and bore little resemblance to her old self.

Today, she stands at just 5ft4in and still walks awkwardly, with a pronounced limp. Her body is held together by screws and metal plates
and, at 70, her face is worn by wrinkles that speak of decades of silent
suffering....

McCain divorced her in 1980 and married Cindy, 18 years his junior and the heir to an Arizona brewing fortune, just one month later....

'My accident is well recorded. I had 23 operations, I am five inches shorter than I used to be and I was in hospital for six months. It was just awful, but it wasn't the reason for my divorce.

'My marriage ended because John McCain didn't want to be 40, he wanted to be 25. You know that happens...it just does.'

Some of McCain's acquaintances are less forgiving, however. They portray the politician as a self-centerd womanizer who effectively abandoned his crippled wife to 'play the field'.
They accuse him of finally settling on Cindy, a former rodeo beauty queen,
for financial reasons....

When McCain – his hair turned prematurely white and his body reduced to little more than a skeleton – was released in March 1973, he told reporters he was overjoyed to see Carol again.

But friends say privately he was 'appalled' by the change in her appearance. At first, though, he was kind, assuring her: 'I don't look so good myself. It's
fine.'...

In 1979 – while still married to Carol – he met Cindy at a cocktail party in Hawaii. Over the next six months he pursued her, flying around the country to see her. Then he began to push to end his marriage.

Carol and her children were devastated. 'It was a complete surprise,' says Nancy Reynolds, a former Reagan aide....

Ted Sampley, who fought with US Special Forces in Vietnam and is now a leading campaigner for veterans' rights, said: 'I have been following John McCain's career for nearly 20 years. I know him personally. There is something wrong with this guy and let me tell you what it is – deceit.

'When he came home and saw that Carol was not the beauty he left behind, he started running around on her almost right away. Everybody around him knew it.

'Eventually he met Cindy and she was young and beautiful and very wealthy. At that point McCain just dumped Carol for something he thought was better.

'This is a guy who makes such a big deal about his
character. He has no character. He is a fake. If there was any character in
that first marriage, it all belonged to Carol.'...

But Ross Perot, who paid her medical bills all those years ago, now believes that both Carol McCain and the American people have been taken in by a man who is unusually slick and cruel – even by the standards of modern politics.

'McCain is the classic opportunist. He's always reaching for attention and glory,' he said.

'After he came home, Carol walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona. And the rest is history.'
 

purrtykitty

Well-known member
A lot of men came back from Vietnam completely different men. I'm sure it didn't help him to return home to a disabled wife. The fact that his marriage didn't survive isn't really much of a surprise.
 

PuterChick

Well-known member
Purrkitty -

I mean no disrespect, I don't think you got the point of the article! But his wife was crippled, so he dumped her!!

Thanks,
A fellow kitty lover...
 

meaghanb2926

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by red

I choose to use contraceptives, practice safe sex, use condoms, use birth control pills, and all tha jazz ... I choose to be responsible.


Wow, thats a pretty big judgement! Perhaps you haven't heard but birth control & condoms are only about 98% effective so that means that while you were being "responsible" you still had a 2% chance of getting pregnant. I take offense when someone says that people who have had abortions are clearly irresponsible. Abortion isn't quite as black and white as you'd like to make it seem.
 

purrtykitty

Well-known member
I do understand the point of the article. But there are many things that contribute to the failure of a marriage and the tragic disfigurement and disabling of a spouse is a big strain on a relationship, then add to it the stress McCain endured while held as a POW. There are two sides to every story, and The Daily Mail is fairly notorious for running inflammatory articles.

And yes, I love kitties!
greengrin.gif
:
 

kimmy

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuterChick
But his wife was crippled, so he dumped her!!

what do you really have to substantiate that? an article written by a reporter for the daily mail is not fact. mainstream media feeds alot of bullshit lines to the public...ALOT.

honestly, nobody other than john and carol know why that marriage dissintegrated. and the stories from both sides probably differ a great deal.

my mom gives one reason for divorcing my dad, while my dad gives a completely different reason. when a marriage breaks up, the truth is very hard (if even possible) to find outside of the two people in the marriage.
 

aziajs

Well-known member
I don't ever read political comparisons like the one posted because they are always skewed. I agree that it's best to do your own independent research.

This election isn't hard for me personally. I am quite clear on who I am going to vote for and I haven't seen anything to change my mind.
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
IMO, as disgusting as behavior like that is (assuming the "facts" are what they are), as long as it doesn't impact the president's job or have him/her run this country into the ground, I can't let it bother me too much. I think it is highly questionable morals, but he has to deal with himself. If there's a higher power, he has to deal with that too.

It doesn't make it right, but quite a few presidents and other political figures stepped out on the wife. FDR did. Bill Clinton did. I think it is disgraceful, but I also think it isn't really public business. I also imagine if I were a wife of an unfaithful man, I'd not want to deal with it in the news.
 

aziajs

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
It doesn't make it right, but quite a few presidents and other political figures stepped out on the wife. FDR did. Bill Clinton did. I think it is disgraceful, but I also think it isn't really public business. I also imagine if I were a wife of an unfaithful man, I'd want to deal with it in the news.

It's kind of a moot point to me because I am willing to bet as sure as I am breathing that they all have at some point.
 

florabundance

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Stargazer*
What's the source for this? The fact checking sucks.



Yeah, John McCain didn't go to West Point.


The Guardian newspaper. Latest news, sport, business, comment and reviews from the Guardian | guardian.co.uk

And some quotes from John McCain at the 1988 Republican National Convention:

"Even as Navy man, I will never forget my first visit to West Point and how impressed I was at its beauty, especially the Chapel. I vividly remember seeing a plaque on the wall of the Chapel inscribed with 156 names. These are the names of the young men who graduated from West Point in 1950."

"That year, North Korea attacked South Korea, and these young men gave their lives in combat -- in the defense of someone else's freedom. At the bottom of that plaque is the West Point motto: "Duty, Honor, Country."

erm yes, ok then. Did you even bother to read the article?
 

PMBG83

Well-known member
Im surprised that the article cites his present wife as a "rodeo beauty". I was always curious as to if he had been married previously. At any rate if those are the facts then that is horrible on his behalf.
 

*Stargazer*

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by florabundance
The Guardian newspaper. Latest news, sport, business, comment and reviews from the Guardian | guardian.co.uk

And some quotes from John McCain at the 1988 Republican National Convention:

"Even as Navy man, I will never forget my first visit to West Point and how impressed I was at its beauty, especially the Chapel. I vividly remember seeing a plaque on the wall of the Chapel inscribed with 156 names. These are the names of the young men who graduated from West Point in 1950."

"That year, North Korea attacked South Korea, and these young men gave their lives in combat -- in the defense of someone else's freedom. At the bottom of that plaque is the West Point motto: "Duty, Honor, Country."

erm yes, ok then. Did you even bother to read the article?


Yeah, I did. It says that John McCain ATTENDED West Point. John McCain DID NOT ATTEND West Point. That article has one of the most verifiable, frequently reported facts from John McCain's biography completely wrong.

ETA: If you'd gone one sentence earlier in your quotes from that speech, you'd have seen this:

Quote:
I was born into a family with a long military tradition. My grandfather attended the United States Naval Academy. My father attended the Naval Academy. And I attended the Naval Academy.
 

Divinity

Well-known member
I just finished an article in the Rolling Stone with Robert Downy Jr. on the front about funding from fat cats to both campaigns and how this affects the promises candidates have made. Sad, really. I know who I'm voting for, but after reading that, I agree with the end quote, 'we're still fucked.' Things might get better, but money talks.
 

purrtykitty

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
It doesn't make it right, but quite a few presidents and other political figures stepped out on the wife. FDR did. Bill Clinton did. I think it is disgraceful, but I also think it isn't really public business. I also imagine if I were a wife of an unfaithful man, I'd want to deal with it in the news.

JFK allegedly did too.
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
Oh, hell yeah. I think he might be one of the most famous ones (Clinton aside). He and his brother (not president, though) allegedly were both doing Marilyn Monroe.

I corrected my post; the last sentence should have a "not" in it. I feel bad for the women and their kids who have to deal with infidelities being aired out in public. John Edwards' wife has enough to worry about; she shouldn't have to worry about all their dirt laundry being aired in public.

I get that McCain allegedly had a crappy reason for divorcing his wife, but I imagine no one has a good reason for infidelity or very few people do.
 

mona lisa

Well-known member
On the whole situation of his first wife, Sen. McCain has been forthright on how what he did was a moral failing on his part. From the Saddleback forum where Obama and McCain answered this question here are the answers of both candidates (courtesy of the transcript from CNN):

Quote:
WARREN: Well, this one isn't any easier. We've had a lot of leaders, because of their weaknesses, character flaws, stumble, become ineffective, are not even serving anymore, serving our country. What's been your greatest moral failure, and what has been the great -- what do you think is the greatest moral failure of America?

MCCAIN: They don't get any easier.

WARREN: No, they don't get any easier.

MCCAIN: My greatest moral failing -- and I have been a very imperfect person -- is the failure of my first marriage. It's my greatest moral failure.

Pretty straight forward there. Notice though that Obama's response is not exactly as direct:

Quote:
WARREN: OK, all right. Let's talk about personal life. The Bible says that integrity and love are the basis of leadership. This is a tough question. What would be, looking over your life -- everybody's got weaknesses. Nobody's perfect -- would be the greatest moral failure in your life? And what would be the greatest moral failure of America?

OBAMA: Well, in my own life I'd break it up in stages. I had a difficult youth. My father wasn't in the house. I've written about this. You know, there were times where I experimented with drugs. I drank in my teenage years. And what I traced this to is a certain selfishness on my part. I was so obsessed with me and, you know, the reasons that I might be dissatisfied that I couldn't focus on other people. And I think the process for me of growing up was to recognize that it's not about me. It's about --

WARREN: I like that. I like that.

OBAMA: Absolutely. So -- but look, you know, when I -- when I find myself taking the wrong step, I think a lot of times it's because I'm trying to protect myself instead of trying to do god's work.

WARREN: Fundamental selfishness.

OBAMA: So that I think is my own failure.

The problem with his answer here is it is generalized. Who in their life has not had times or periods where they have been selfish? And one could argue that the entire approach of the Obama campaign is on Sen. Obama so in that respect there is still selfishness being manifested.

But that is a minor criticism admittedly. The part where the candidates talked about their hardest decisions is far more revealing as far as I am concerned. Let us start with Sen. Obama on this one:

Quote:
WARREN: What's the most significant -- let me ask it this way. What's the most gut-wrenching decision you ever had to make and how did you process that to come to that decision?

OBAMA: Well, you know, I think the opposition to the war in Iraq was as tough a decision as I've had to make. Not only because there were political consequences, but also because Saddam Hussein was a real bad person, and there was no doubt that he meant America ill. But I was firmly convinced at the time that we did not have strong evidence of weapons of mass destruction, and there were a lot of questions that, as I spoke to experts, kept on coming up. Do we know how the Shia and the Sunni and the Kurds are going to get along in a post-Saddam situation? What's our assessment as to how this will affect the battle against terrorists like al Qaeda? Have we finished the job in Afghanistan?

So I agonized over that. And I think that questions of war and peace generally are so profound. You know, when you meet the troops, they're 19, 20, 21-year-old kids, and you're putting them into harm's way. There is a solemn obligation that you do everything you can to get that decision right. And now, as the war went forward, there are difficult decisions about how long do you keep on funding the war, if you strongly believe that it's not in America's national interest. At the same time, you don't want to have troops who are out there without the equipment they need.

So all those questions surrounding the war have been very difficult for me.

Basically, Obama says his toughest decision was one he did not have to make as he was not even a US Senator when the vote on the resolution to use force passed the congress in 2002. Sen. McCain had to make a decision on this matter. So did Sen. Biden and Sen. Clinton. All three of them voted to authorize the use of force but my point in noting this is whatever or however you view that issue, McCain, Biden, and Clinton were on the record as having had to make a decision on this matter and Obama was back in the Illinois legislature. Surprisingly, he did not mention his twenty year affiliation with his self-proclaimed "mentor" the racist preacher Jeremiah Wright, his involvement in land deals and influence peddling with slum lord and convicted felon Tony Rezko, or his affiliation and friendship with unrepentant Weatherman terrorist William Ayers. Those moral failings on his part could have been mentioned but he instead confines his worst moral failing to "selfishness" and his worst decision to one he never even had to make!!! Very revealing if you ask me.

Here is Sen. McCain's response to the same question:

Quote:
WARREN: Well, you just took the -- I had that question later on but now we don't have to ask it. What's the most gut-wrenching decision you've ever had to make? And what was the process that you used to make it?

MCCAIN: It was long ago, and far away, in a prison camp in North Vietnam. My father was a high-ranking admiral. The Vietnamese came and said that I could leave prison early. And we had a code of conduct. It said you only leave by order of capture. I also had a dear and beloved friend, who was from California, named Ebb Alvarez, who had been shot down before me. But I wasn't in good physical shape. In fact, I was in rather bad physical shape. So I said no. Now, in interest of full disclosure, I'm happy I didn't know the war was going to last for another three years or so.

But I said no, and I'll never forget sitting in my last answer, and the high-ranking officer offered it, slammed the door and the interrogator said, "Go back to your cell. It's going to be very tough on you now." And it was. But not only the toughest decision I ever made, but I am most happy about that decision, than any decision I've ever made in my life. (APPLAUSE).

Pardon me if I view Sen. McCain's choice of most significant personal decision as far more significant and demonstrating of personal character than that of Sen. Obama's -rather than choose the easy way out he refused and was subjected to periodic torture for three additional years.

He could have mentioned that he did at a couple points break under torture or even that he considered suicide to escape the hell he was in. But he chose the failure of his first marriage which was largely his fault as his most significant moral failing.

More could be noted and there are issues each candidate has views on which I do not agree with. But the character of a candidate to me is important and I find significantly more troubling problems with Sen. Obama than I do Sen. McCain and that is before we get to their choice of vice presidential running mates (another subject for another time perhaps).
 
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