Split - Barbie: race issues, image issues
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lemurian
Well-known member
Quote:
Totally. My first Barbie (circa '83) was not white, even though I lived in a small rural racially homogenous town in the midwest
I'd never even thought twice about it until now.. *shrug*
Originally Posted by haseena
I don't see how Barbie targets only a certain racial group. I've had Barbie dolls that are Indian and I've seen many other race groups represented by Barbie 
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Totally. My first Barbie (circa '83) was not white, even though I lived in a small rural racially homogenous town in the midwest
I'd never even thought twice about it until now.. *shrug*
Katial8r
Active member
Quote:
:huh2: What are you saying exactly? That MAC shouldn't market their products at all, to certain "types" of people? Surely, you are not serious?
Last time I checked, MAC is a HUGE and SUCCESSFUL business. And, if they want to continue being so, they will continue what they are doing. That is, trying to cater to all!
| Originally Posted by Uchina
WASPiness is the default culture in North America. They already get enough representation. |
:huh2: What are you saying exactly? That MAC shouldn't market their products at all, to certain "types" of people? Surely, you are not serious?
Last time I checked, MAC is a HUGE and SUCCESSFUL business. And, if they want to continue being so, they will continue what they are doing. That is, trying to cater to all!
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
That's a really unfair statement, I believe.
It's interesting to note that the repercussions of having a "light-skinned color cosmetics company" for women on the light end of the spectrum, a white entertainment channel, a national association for the advancement of noncolored people, a united caucasian college fund, etc. are drastic enough to make those things unrealistic visions, only because they're for non-colored people.
Don't think there are JUST as many socially and economically disadvantaged white people in America? That would be incorrect. The disadvantages are just as real for caucasians as non caucasians.
It's simply frustrating to me that I'm white, and it's expected that I apologise for being so. I'm certainly not going to. I've not done anything to apologise for. I don't expect anyone else to apologise for being black, brown, red, yellow, or orange, either. I don't expect anyone else to apologise for their religion, or their color, or anything else. Particularly when they aren't the ones committing heinous acts.
When I enlisted in the military I had NO experience in dealing with ANYONE of another race. Period. I went to an allwhite school (NO prejudices, that's just the demographics of the region), and had never had any encounters at all with Asians, Hispanics, Blacks, whatever. I didn't have any preconceived notions about any group of people.
I walked into Ft. Jackson's 120th Reception Battalion as open to new experiences and ideas as any terrified new phleeb could be, getting off that van.
Going into my bay for my week at RecBat, I was one of about 8 white girls. Of those 8, 3 of them were in mixed relationships, another 3 were actively suspicious of non-whites, one girl was of the mind that she hated everybody, and that left me.
I have never in my life seen a more active, hateful, spiteful, nasty, mindblowing, unreal, unNECESSARY display of open racism in my life. The non-caucasian girls in the bay were absolutely spiteful mean cruel bitches. Their reasoning? I'm getting it in on you before you get it in on me.
The PG and I talked (she was a black female, in her late 20s) and we just discussed where we were from etc. and she realized what my perception was.
I have never in my life seen such an asschewing as the one she handed out that night at 3 in the morning. She woke EVERYONE up telling them they were the most moronic group of idiots she had ever seen because they were so busy bitching about racism and trying to make sure it didn't happen they were guilty of committing it.
She launched into this diatribe of how they ALL had the chance to prove what kind of people they really were and they blew it because they chose to be what they said they hated: a group of racists with preconceived notions regarding other people.
My point?
ALL OF US experience racism. Pretty much ALL of our ancestors experienced racism (I'm Cherokee and Irish...google the Trail of Tears and Irish Immigrant racism, and the "know nothing" era...).
To say that "One group gets enough representation" is only a perpetuation of that which so many claim to hate: racism...it may be against "WASP"s, but it's racism nonetheless.
| Originally Posted by Uchina
WASPiness is the default culture in North America. They already get enough representation. |
That's a really unfair statement, I believe.
It's interesting to note that the repercussions of having a "light-skinned color cosmetics company" for women on the light end of the spectrum, a white entertainment channel, a national association for the advancement of noncolored people, a united caucasian college fund, etc. are drastic enough to make those things unrealistic visions, only because they're for non-colored people.
Don't think there are JUST as many socially and economically disadvantaged white people in America? That would be incorrect. The disadvantages are just as real for caucasians as non caucasians.
It's simply frustrating to me that I'm white, and it's expected that I apologise for being so. I'm certainly not going to. I've not done anything to apologise for. I don't expect anyone else to apologise for being black, brown, red, yellow, or orange, either. I don't expect anyone else to apologise for their religion, or their color, or anything else. Particularly when they aren't the ones committing heinous acts.
When I enlisted in the military I had NO experience in dealing with ANYONE of another race. Period. I went to an allwhite school (NO prejudices, that's just the demographics of the region), and had never had any encounters at all with Asians, Hispanics, Blacks, whatever. I didn't have any preconceived notions about any group of people.
I walked into Ft. Jackson's 120th Reception Battalion as open to new experiences and ideas as any terrified new phleeb could be, getting off that van.
Going into my bay for my week at RecBat, I was one of about 8 white girls. Of those 8, 3 of them were in mixed relationships, another 3 were actively suspicious of non-whites, one girl was of the mind that she hated everybody, and that left me.
I have never in my life seen a more active, hateful, spiteful, nasty, mindblowing, unreal, unNECESSARY display of open racism in my life. The non-caucasian girls in the bay were absolutely spiteful mean cruel bitches. Their reasoning? I'm getting it in on you before you get it in on me.
The PG and I talked (she was a black female, in her late 20s) and we just discussed where we were from etc. and she realized what my perception was.
I have never in my life seen such an asschewing as the one she handed out that night at 3 in the morning. She woke EVERYONE up telling them they were the most moronic group of idiots she had ever seen because they were so busy bitching about racism and trying to make sure it didn't happen they were guilty of committing it.
She launched into this diatribe of how they ALL had the chance to prove what kind of people they really were and they blew it because they chose to be what they said they hated: a group of racists with preconceived notions regarding other people.
My point?
ALL OF US experience racism. Pretty much ALL of our ancestors experienced racism (I'm Cherokee and Irish...google the Trail of Tears and Irish Immigrant racism, and the "know nothing" era...).
To say that "One group gets enough representation" is only a perpetuation of that which so many claim to hate: racism...it may be against "WASP"s, but it's racism nonetheless.
Quote:
I completely understand what you are saying and I in no way disagree that there is racism against white people. [I am native american, scottish, and english. so genetically we're from a similiar pool, although I grew up in the pits of diversity-southern california-and attended a bilingual kindergarten.] However, no one is saying that white people are going to steal their bike or crossing the street so they don't have to pass a white person right here, right now. We were just discussing beauty standards. and it is true that white has been the standard of beauty for a long time.
so people were just voicing their own frustrations at the media and our society for deciding that white people will be the beauty-standard to which all other people are held. While we have come a long way in showing other races as beautiful, most black models are still very fair-skinned for black women and have very aryan features. I don't think anyone here is getting upset at white people. They just want to have something a little more similiar to themselves to be called beautiful and glamorous and desirable. MAC is usually pretty good at doing that, and so some people feel a little betrayed that they would collaborate with Barbie, who [yes] showcases many other races now, but still keeps blonde, blue-eyed, fair-skinned Barbie as the headliner. You really can not buy black Barbie, but you can buy black Jessica, who is friends with Barbie. and I'm not saying that because Barbie is white she shouldn't get to be the headliner. It's just a disappointing trend in the fashion industry.
but on a side note, I don't think anyone got very upset when Pamela was promoting viva glam v and maybe that was because it was about the lipstick and it wasn't a pamela collection. and I guess she is also just a person and not a symbol, like Barbie. but I am interested to hear if some of the people who are adamantly against this didn't mind that, what they see the difference as.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
That's a really unfair statement, I believe. ALL OF US experience racism. Pretty much ALL of our ancestors experienced racism (I'm Cherokee and Irish...google the Trail of Tears and Irish Immigrant racism, and the "know nothing" era...). To say that "One group gets enough representation" is only a perpetuation of that which so many claim to hate: racism...it may be against "WASP"s, but it's racism nonetheless. |
I completely understand what you are saying and I in no way disagree that there is racism against white people. [I am native american, scottish, and english. so genetically we're from a similiar pool, although I grew up in the pits of diversity-southern california-and attended a bilingual kindergarten.] However, no one is saying that white people are going to steal their bike or crossing the street so they don't have to pass a white person right here, right now. We were just discussing beauty standards. and it is true that white has been the standard of beauty for a long time.
so people were just voicing their own frustrations at the media and our society for deciding that white people will be the beauty-standard to which all other people are held. While we have come a long way in showing other races as beautiful, most black models are still very fair-skinned for black women and have very aryan features. I don't think anyone here is getting upset at white people. They just want to have something a little more similiar to themselves to be called beautiful and glamorous and desirable. MAC is usually pretty good at doing that, and so some people feel a little betrayed that they would collaborate with Barbie, who [yes] showcases many other races now, but still keeps blonde, blue-eyed, fair-skinned Barbie as the headliner. You really can not buy black Barbie, but you can buy black Jessica, who is friends with Barbie. and I'm not saying that because Barbie is white she shouldn't get to be the headliner. It's just a disappointing trend in the fashion industry.
but on a side note, I don't think anyone got very upset when Pamela was promoting viva glam v and maybe that was because it was about the lipstick and it wasn't a pamela collection. and I guess she is also just a person and not a symbol, like Barbie. but I am interested to hear if some of the people who are adamantly against this didn't mind that, what they see the difference as.
blueyedlady87
Well-known member
Obviously, Barbie is amazing. Personally, I think people don't like her because she represents their shortcomings. As far as a Barbie/MAC collab. it would be fab. I'd have to buy every bit of it.
PS. I had about 500 Barbies growing up and I turned out fine.
To me it wasn't about how perfect they looked, it was about playing make-believe. Then again, maybe if I was fat and ugly I would feel different, lol.
PS. I had about 500 Barbies growing up and I turned out fine.
leppy
Well-known member
I don't hate Barbie but there are some perfectly valid complaints about the image the dolls portray and their incredibly unrealistic body types.
I think its really insulting that you are not so subtley saying that anyone who has an issue wih that feels that way because of their own shortcomings and one must be fat and ugly to think that way.
If you want to defend Barbie because it brings to mind positive things about your childhood I completely understand that, but it is downright ignorant and wrong to be so judgemental and close-minded about the objections people have. Maybe she has been a good role model for you, but that doesn't give you the right to degrade people who feel differently.
Also resorting to insults or putting people down to feel superior or prove a point is a symptom of having nothing useful or constructive to add to the debate. Next time you preview your post and find nothing but nastiness in it, do us all a favour and don't hit "submit". Yeesh.
I'm honestly shocked that people could get so nasty about this. Shocked and greatly disappointed.
I think its really insulting that you are not so subtley saying that anyone who has an issue wih that feels that way because of their own shortcomings and one must be fat and ugly to think that way.
If you want to defend Barbie because it brings to mind positive things about your childhood I completely understand that, but it is downright ignorant and wrong to be so judgemental and close-minded about the objections people have. Maybe she has been a good role model for you, but that doesn't give you the right to degrade people who feel differently.
Also resorting to insults or putting people down to feel superior or prove a point is a symptom of having nothing useful or constructive to add to the debate. Next time you preview your post and find nothing but nastiness in it, do us all a favour and don't hit "submit". Yeesh.
I'm honestly shocked that people could get so nasty about this. Shocked and greatly disappointed.
lemurian
Well-known member
Quote:
Whoa, I'm really surprised at how hard we're coming down on this silly comment. While I agree with leppy, I do think it's odd that we're attacking a fat comment and yet blatantly racist comments earlier in the thread didn't warrant a peep from the mods... :/
| Originally Posted by lara
barbie_doll_713, keep a civil tongue. People are free to voice their dissent about this line/Barbie in general in the same way that you are free to voice your support for the doll. Please don't lower the tone of the thread by throwing around childish insults. |
Whoa, I'm really surprised at how hard we're coming down on this silly comment. While I agree with leppy, I do think it's odd that we're attacking a fat comment and yet blatantly racist comments earlier in the thread didn't warrant a peep from the mods... :/
macjunkieTURKEY
Well-known member
Quote:
I am fat and sometimes ugly but i still like barbie. but to you OBVIOUSLY it is about how perfect they look otherwise you wouldnt classify people as "fat and ugly".
| Originally Posted by barbie_doll_713
Obviously, Barbie is amazing. Personally, I think people don't like her because she represents their shortcomings. As far as a Barbie/MAC collab. it would be fab. I'd have to buy every bit of it. PS. I had about 500 Barbies growing up and I turned out fine.
|
I am fat and sometimes ugly but i still like barbie. but to you OBVIOUSLY it is about how perfect they look otherwise you wouldnt classify people as "fat and ugly".
macjunkieTURKEY
Well-known member
MarniMac
Well-known member
Quote:
I'm Cherokee (1/4) and Irish (English and German also) too and everyone assumes I'm a wasp and I hate it! If I could wear the fact that I'm Cherokee on my forehead, I would, cuz I'm proud
As far as the Barbie/MAC collaboration goes...1. Am I wrong in thinking that Barbie comes in many different skin colors? I mean, the first Barbie WAS white, but nowadays she is all different races. 2. I think Barbie is a REPRESENTATION of women. Some of us may look more or less like Barbie, but the point is she is a doll that represents feminity. Barbie and MAC make sense to me, cuz she wears makeup and so do we. You don't have to be white or blonde to wear the barbie makeup...just like you don't have to be white to play with the white barbie or say, black, to play with the black barbie. Its just FUN, imho, not meant to make people feel shortcomings. MAC is all ages/races/sexes and while I'm not aware of an "older" barbie doll, she definitely comes in multiple races and don't forget about Ken (he definitely wears makeup, hehe).
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
ALL OF US experience racism. Pretty much ALL of our ancestors experienced racism (I'm Cherokee and Irish...google the Trail of Tears and Irish Immigrant racism, and the "know nothing" era...). To say that "One group gets enough representation" is only a perpetuation of that which so many claim to hate: racism...it may be against "WASP"s, but it's racism nonetheless. |
I'm Cherokee (1/4) and Irish (English and German also) too and everyone assumes I'm a wasp and I hate it! If I could wear the fact that I'm Cherokee on my forehead, I would, cuz I'm proud
As far as the Barbie/MAC collaboration goes...1. Am I wrong in thinking that Barbie comes in many different skin colors? I mean, the first Barbie WAS white, but nowadays she is all different races. 2. I think Barbie is a REPRESENTATION of women. Some of us may look more or less like Barbie, but the point is she is a doll that represents feminity. Barbie and MAC make sense to me, cuz she wears makeup and so do we. You don't have to be white or blonde to wear the barbie makeup...just like you don't have to be white to play with the white barbie or say, black, to play with the black barbie. Its just FUN, imho, not meant to make people feel shortcomings. MAC is all ages/races/sexes and while I'm not aware of an "older" barbie doll, she definitely comes in multiple races and don't forget about Ken (he definitely wears makeup, hehe).
blueyedlady87
Well-known member
Quote:
Thanks for the support!!! The whole whole "WASP" comment really irked me. I'm a bit confused because saying if I were fat/ugly seems much more harmless than some of the racist comments that were made. I happen to be a WASP. I'm proud of my heritage and find that just as offenseful as someone calling a black person the N word. I find it funny that barbie evokes such strong feelings of hate from grown people. It makes me question why. But I apoligize if I offended anyone, perhaps I should have worded it differently. On a side note I have friends black, white, brown, ugly, gorgeous, thin, and fat who all like Barbie. So I don't think liking barbie is limited to pretty thin people. And yes, I'm shallow, shoot me.
| Originally Posted by lemurian
Whoa, I'm really surprised at how hard we're coming down on this silly comment. While I agree with leppy, I do think it's odd that we're attacking a fat comment and yet blatantly racist comments earlier in the thread didn't warrant a peep from the mods... :/ |
Thanks for the support!!! The whole whole "WASP" comment really irked me. I'm a bit confused because saying if I were fat/ugly seems much more harmless than some of the racist comments that were made. I happen to be a WASP. I'm proud of my heritage and find that just as offenseful as someone calling a black person the N word. I find it funny that barbie evokes such strong feelings of hate from grown people. It makes me question why. But I apoligize if I offended anyone, perhaps I should have worded it differently. On a side note I have friends black, white, brown, ugly, gorgeous, thin, and fat who all like Barbie. So I don't think liking barbie is limited to pretty thin people. And yes, I'm shallow, shoot me.
prinzessin784
Well-known member
no offense ladies but I think some of you are looking WAY too deeply into this. Barbie is a popular toy. Not a political statement. She's not out to get black women or Asian women or anything like that, she's just a toy!!! And yeah she has black friends but they can't all be named Barbie! Think of how confusing it would be if everyone in their circle of friends had the same name???
lemurian
Well-known member
Quote:
You make your point just fine
Don't worry, some people are just burdoned by a victim mentality and see racism in everything. Don't take others' ignorance to heart.
| Originally Posted by macjunkieTURKEY
This is beyond mean and rude. Ottoman Empire is a role model for diversity. And there isnt such a thing as Armenian Genocide. In Turkey Armenians and Turks live in a perfect harmony. Its some political stuff between Turkey and France. Since we Turks arent Christian France doesnt want us in EU. ironicly this is racist indeed. And again if there is genocide its not the nation its some politicians who did it during WW1 and its not due to racial stuff. It was war. And Armenians was rebelling by the support of Russia. OK this is slowly getting complicated i will end it here but i am really upset. I tried to say that we Turks never ever judged people with their colors and i cant understand why people ever do this since this is very absurd. my english isnt perfect this is probably why you couldnt get me but you are way to quick to judge you should realise the fact mac is a multinational corporation and people worldwide write their opinions on Specktra forums and not everybody has to speak english perfect. |
You make your point just fine
